The Crucible:Conversations for the Curious

Hamish (00:00)
Hello everybody and welcome to a new style of podcast for me. Today I've got Juliana with me. She was on my podcast late last year and we've been working together on her podcast and she's going to be, she doesn't quite know this yet, but she's going to be co-hosting with me from time to time to time. And I think it's going be really interesting because

I said, we've been working together. And what has come out is a really fascinating dialogue, the communication, the ideas, the way we bounce off each other. And you've got that lovely blend of this highly intuitive, feminine energy and this slightly more grounded, slightly more grounded masculine energy.

And, you know, we've got two different views on understanding the world from our perspectives. We've got our own experiences and yet the, the way that we bounce off each other's ideas together, I think is really fascinating. So yeah, so I'm looking forward to this. Juliana, can you tell me a little bit about, just a little bit about you, just for those people who have not found your podcast episode that we did last year together.

Juliana McClane (01:19)
thank you so much Hamish. Thank you so much for the surprise. Yeah, what can I say? I...

I'm just a human being walking on earth with the awareness of higher who we are, deepest level in our souls and hearts. I live in Denmark and I'm grateful to meet you because with your support I kind of give birth to this podcast that I have and it's named

Heart De -tox with Gentle Talks where I share, we share another perspective. It's like how we see life and kind of you what is your perspective, what is my perspective and like putting together this perspective of lives that we can see from and through our own life experiences, which is just a diamond less to say put it there because

We all have this individual unique pair of glasses to see world and it's just wonderful the way when we come together. So I'm amazed what we can create together. And yeah, I don't know what to add more about myself because I'm like, yeah, I'm just me and there is not much to say. It's just, hello.

Let's more to be, so to say, discover or go into it than what I'm just feel too humble to say something about myself. I'm just me.

Hamish (03:03)
Well, just me, think is fab. That is a great start. I loved what you said. We have glasses to look at the world. Why did you phrase it like that? Because I think that was a really, that tweaked my interest that one.

Juliana McClane (03:22)
No, because we have a different perspective of life and I see that this is our own glasses and we are using individual glasses to see life, to perceive life because it's based on the experience we had in this life. So your experience in life is totally different than mine and you can see life in totally another way that I can see life. So it's like, is nobody right or wrong? It's just...

I have another pair of glasses as you have another pair of glasses and you are function with that kind of view. I function with this kind of view. So I really see that we are kind of sea world to our unique waves of perceiving life. So I see like we have different glasses. We cannot change it because you cannot. I cannot take your experience of life and put it on me. I may understand your experience. I may understand your...

let's say whatever you was going through, but I will never can use your pair of glasses and look through so can I see life through you. But when we speak about it's kind of, I see another perspective, but I will never feel it, sense it to that degree that you can perceive it and see it and sense it. But I can see it from the outside. So that's how I see like that's our own glasses.

Hamish (04:41)
So, who's right then? Who is right? If you see it your way, I see it my way. Who is right?

Juliana McClane (04:48)
In my perspective, nobody's right and nobody's wrong. It's just another perspective of seeing life. It's like you have a piece of puzzle. I have another piece of puzzle. It's like, it's two different puzzle, but this is a piece from the same picture. It's just, we need to find where is the right place for us to be. Because if we are in the right place, then we can see, okay, that's what is there. So it's like, nobody's right and nobody's wrong. It's just what it is. It's an experience.

But once we are choosing to sit together with our different experience and perception of life, we actually see a bigger picture of, okay, that's what it is. I could not see it if you could not come with your perspective, like how we do it in the podcast. Like you helped me to, let's say, give birth to mine when I was like, I can do it. And you come with your masculine, you know.

let's say energy and holding space, which I cannot do it by myself, which is the feminine. it's like, need another senses there, which is, we don't have it, but it's so much helping us actually to see, to perceive, to understand. So nobody's right and nobody's wrong. It's just an experience to feel it, to see it, to go through and take it or leave it, learn it or not and move on. I mean, don't get stuck.

Hamish (06:14)
I want to go back to your specs because we've had experiences and they've, I'm going to say they've stained our lives. They really have our upbringing, our traumas, our experiences. They are like bits of dirt on our lenses, on our specs that we see through. And...

You know, so I'm basically, yeah, I'm looking at the world like this and I'm missing out on all sorts of things. So I guess that's why if mine are like that and yours are like that, chatting with you, chatting with other people, I'm going to see that different perspective and I'm going to, I'm going to see things differently. You know, I'm going to see things from your perspective, another person's perspective and...

That can be exciting, can't it? That can be really exciting when it's like, I like that. And it can also be like, no, I really don't subscribe to that. yeah. So I've got that dirty lens where I don't see that. So my beliefs, my thoughts, my worldview is going to be limited by my vision, my seeing the world. Is that why I'm going to say that you're wrong because I'm right?

Juliana McClane (07:09)
Yeah.

Hamish (07:30)
Is it as simple as that, do you think?

Juliana McClane (07:33)
My perspective is that when we hold on pain, it's like you hold on the ego and ego wants to be right and ego wants to say, I'm right in whatever there is and nobody kind of mess up with the reality that I have been created for myself. And then you hold on some truth or some reality you create for you, which is based on the wounds, the experiences, the dirty lentils, how you say it.

And when you learn to heal and you actually willing to heal is like the lens are start to you, start to see much more bright to even though it's still dirt there and dust, but you start to see that's mean you start to accept others people's point of view in life. And then you start to get in touch with your senses of, this is resonating with me. Like, I don't know how, but I feel something is resonating with me, even though like

I cannot put it, but I just feel it. That means those lentils is a little bit more clearer. So you can penetrate through. It's not so dense of the pain and the shadow. It's more like open. So you have the ability to penetrate and resonate with someone else through. you say like, wow, I never think about this, but it's like, should really hit me where I can use this for my own life.

So I see kind of like this, it's like when we come together and we resonate with each other, it's not that, okay, I will take your truth as my truth. It's like, I just feel it's resonating with me. There is something that is right also in my body. I feel it like I can use this to assist me myself, actually to cleanse more my lentils, so to say, so I can see more bigger perspective or a bigger picture.

So I say in my perspective is like when we are so in I am right and you are wrong and that's not true and that's it's because we are so much holding on a reality that's being created by our mind that is our ego that don't want to let go of the illusion that has been created for itself and because ego always wants to be right

it will hold on and will push everything away that it's not assisting in holding the perspective of that illusion. So I'm seeing like that, but when you are dealing with your emotions and trauma and you are aware then there is crack and open something where you is still ego there, it still will be trigger, but you'll be more aware because those lentils you start to...

see a little bit brighter and yes it's dirty, yes it's polarized but then you get in touch with that feeling of I don't know how but it's resonating what you say and I feel like it's it's say something to me so that's how I'm seeing it.

Hamish (10:43)
Yep, I like that. And yeah, so it's getting out of your head, isn't it? It's not just running your world with this. It's also, as you said, it's the feeling, it's, resonate. Yeah, that makes an awful lot of sense. I was four years ago now, can't believe it. Four years ago, I played this game with myself where I sort of, I decided to be open-minded and not just have those dirty lenses, but exactly that. Listen to what somebody else said.

And if what they were saying made sense to me, if it resonated, if they were authentic, you know, let's say they were a spiritual medium, but they weren't pushing it down my throat. weren't just using it as snake oil. They believed it. They embodied it. Then why not listen to them? Why, why are they wrong? And that really changed everything because it was.

You know, I started to listen. I started to listen to other people's worldviews, you know, looking at the world through their lenses, the best I could, as you said earlier on, you know, I can't do it, but I can, I can, I can visualize it. I can listen to it. And that was magical. It really was. It's that started a whole new way of understanding possibility and took away that, that rage and you're wrong because I'm right and things like that.

And that, this is what I thinking, that is where I actually started to take my power back. You know, we give away our power so easily, you know, you're wrong, I'm right, you're wrong, I hate you because, and all of that is not being authentic. But when I started to listen and what resonated, know,

So many ideas came up because I've got one, you my experience is 53 years of being Hamish, not how many years you are of, of Juliana and so many of this and so many of that. But by listening to everybody else and going, I like that. Don't like that. I like that. Don't like that. You know, I have a, my, my dirty vision is so much clearer because I've filled those little dark patches with other people's

perceptions and viewpoints that makes sense to me and it's really beautiful.

It's not just taking your beliefs without paying attention or things like that. As you said, it's resonating. It's looking at them and going, yeah, I like that. I really like that. I'm gonna put that little bit, clean that bit and stick it. That's Juliana's thoughts. I like that. That's this, that's that. It's been a magical experience. It really has.

Juliana McClane (13:36)
Yeah, because at the same time we help ourselves by other people's point of view because they see life from another angle, you see it from another angle, somebody sees it from above, somebody sees it from below. So it's like we are being placed in so unique places that we have different perspectives of life. And of course, depends on our own experiences. It's like we can kind of

That's coming to me, this image like this diamond, like a mirror, you know, like the diamond is shining all over the place when you put a specific light. Hey, exactly this, like, and then you have the perspective. when you, don't say you have to accept everything, but if you resonate with more of those perspective, it's like you enrich your own aspect of being. And you can see from many other perspective of you, even though this brain sometimes cannot get the yet things.

But in your beingness is a resonance like I'm resonating with you. It feels, I don't know, but this feels right. And I will still figure out, but this feels right for me. Like the feeling is like, yeah, man, I feel you what you say. And there is a truth for me too, but I need to catch up with my mind maybe in some aspects of life. So it's like really enriching your own being by looking at many other perspective of life.

Yeah.

Hamish (15:00)
Yes, everything becomes three dimensional, doesn't it? It's not just a finger. There's a shadow. For those people who watching this, there's a shadow on my face. So it's got density, it's got volume. You're seeing it from another view. I like that. I love that from above and from below.

Yeah, you just, it's enriching. And as you said, it resonates. You feel better for it. You get a better understanding and you get more tolerant. mean, looking at that, I'm able to listen to somebody and say, you're talking bullshit. I like you as a person, you your ideas, your concepts don't resonate, but that's fine. You know, it's...

I don't have to dislike you just because you don't think like me. We're different. As I said, you see a nine, I see a six. Who's right?

Juliana McClane (16:02)
Exactly. It's like

this many knows like two people look of the same image or the same object and they see totally two different thing but it's the same but because they are being placed in different position. So us as a human we are being placed in different experiences. Yes the pain is the same. Yes the madness is the same to the multitude or whatever but the experience is different.

And that shape us who we are as a being and that's create this unique glasses we look and see life through. That's why we can understand the pain of others because I was through my own pain, you were through your own pain, but you see the view of life is differently because of the experience. So that's why we are unique in this aspect, but on the emotional level, we are

We're kind of on the same ball. We all experience the same, but the experience of the point of view of life is changed based on our unique experiences. So somebody sees nine, somebody sees six, it's exactly that.

Hamish (17:19)
And as I said, you know, it takes away that lack of tolerance because, as you said, I'm seeing a little bit of the world from your point of view. And I get to sense that you've struggled with things and you being anybody, not just Juliana. And, you know, I'm seeing that.

Other people have got their own ways of doing things. They found their own ways of making sense of life. And you begin to see beauty. You begin to see beauty in people. You begin to see that that behavior is, you know, it's just bad behavior. That, that ugliness is a coping strategy. That drinking is a coping strategy. That sitting on TikTok, how much longer that's going to be around is a coping strategy.

But that's okay, you know, the person behind that has got their own...

stuff they're dealing with.

Juliana McClane (18:18)
They their

own story. Like now when you speak, I see this spiral, these steps of spiraling because they're where we are. We are on a spiral steps and somebody is a little bit higher, somebody's lower, somebody's walking their path. And we may get engaged with somebody who is in the beginning of the steps, let's say, and they are trying to figure out and somebody's walking somewhere more high. Nobody's high or low. It's just the perception of life, how they see it. More you are high on these stairs.

more you have the, more you can accept the different aspects of human's perspective because you was walking there, you see like, know who they are. To the core, we are the same, but what's playing out is based on the experience we had. So that's why like when we meet somebody, we automatically project our own ideas, who is X, just by looking how it looks.

have beer, have no beer, how's the teeth, how's the eyes, how's the clothes? We already, we create a story and then the mind say, okay, this is this person. When in reality, it's not that. Or we perceive people while we hear about this or our own experience with them. So it's like, don't get engaged of what you hear, what your mind try to create story because as you say, in the core is the same, but what they are playing out.

is exactly those copy mechanisms, those surviving strategies that they're using to deal with life, with pain and so on. So it's like, can we look deep and see people for who they really are and don't get engaged with what it's playing out, this avatar ego mind? Can we just have this compassion and to know who they are, but don't get, don't buy in their bullshit because yes.

There is a lot of bullshit. So say, hey, I love you. I like you as a person. But there's so much bullshit playing out, as you say, just recently.

Hamish (20:20)
First, as you're saying that, the first thing that sprung to my mind is, hi, I'm Hamish. What do you do for a living? Where do you live? And in other words, I'm asking you, what's your income? Should I associate with you? Have you got a high powered job? Are you doing this? Do you live in a nice neighborhood? Are you aligned with me? Are you better than me? Are you worse than me? You know, these questions that we are taught to ask or expected to ask, no, you know, what brings you joy? I dare.

People listening to this, dare you next time you meet somebody, ask them, what brings you joy? You know, what gets you up first thing in the morning to go and do something? You know, what's those reasons for doing that? Not, you know, which basically comes down to not things like, you know, how much money are you earning? Do you have a five bedroom house? You know, all that kind of stuff, which we start to judge people by. It's so sad. It really is.

Juliana McClane (21:15)
Yes, it is because again we want to go around with... again this is from coming from the mind perspective because society go with those who can help you to be there but have you ever thought about that there are let's say humans that live on the street they have such a wisdom I see it when they open the mouth some of them they have such a wisdom and you ask yourself how they end up there

There is a choice, but the wisdom within have nothing to do where they live, what they have and how much money they have and how they are looking. The wisdom is just from the inside that that's we cannot see it, but only when we talk and we allow it to interact and to open ourselves, then we see the precious things in human beings. It's not.

their Ferraris and house and jobs and their high class way of living. Yeah, respect, but.

There is more bad things going on than those who live in the street if you look at it from another perspective. yeah.

Hamish (22:29)
What about things like gurus? What about things like, you know, let's say I've introduced myself to somebody and, I put them on a pedestal. think, you know, this person is amazing. I love what they're saying. I love this. I love everything about them. I want to be them. I want to be like them, you know, the influencers, for example, or the Tony Robbins of this world, these people who have, I'm to say achieved greatness. What

is what is it about them that is so attractive and why do we put them on pedestals and what actually you know is that is that a good thing or is that a bad thing?

Juliana McClane (23:11)
From my perspective, this is a bad behavior to put someone on pedestal. Yes, you can have respect for what they achieve. Yes, you can have respect for their knowledge that they can share with you. But you have to be aware that putting someone on pedestal is actually you lower yourself. Why you have to lower yourself? Because somebody have learned the lessons, have go through their own experience, have achieved the specific...

level where they can share now with the world and you make yourself small and look up of them and just give your power away. That's what it is actually giving your power away to those that they are more visible on social world on they are so known in the world with all my respect. They achieved they are there because they work for it. But why you put them on pedestal? Because so many

clap and look up of them. That's why you feel like inferiority. You feel like, I will never can be to such degrees. you can if you don't put them on pedestal and recognize that you are as the same worthy as them. It's just you have your lesson, you have your path. Why you compare? Like why you compare? So for me, it's like with all respect what they do, how what they did and the lesson they learned.

Hamish (24:31)
Yeah.

Juliana McClane (24:38)
But don't put yourself, don't lower yourself because they are being known international and you are just a nobody looking on TV. boy, when your clock is kicking, know, click, click, click, when your time is coming, you'll be surprised, kind of. So putting somebody on pedestal is giving your power away and giving your power away is you cannot see. They're also humans. Do you think they are perfect? Do you think you are perfect? No. Do you think they are perfect? No.

They are not either perfect. We see them perfect. We make them perfect. Reality, are humans dealing with everyday life shit as everybody. You don't know what's going on in living room. You know what I mean? it's like giving part away and make yourself small. Why?

Hamish (25:20)
Mm.

Juliana McClane (25:25)
have respect, but...

Hamish (25:27)
I think that's a really interesting point, isn't it? This giving away your power. It's unhealthy. It's easy to do though, because society says you have to be like this, you have to be like that. Your parents tell you, don't do this, don't blow your own trumpet, don't do this, don't do this. mean, I'm sure kids get more don'ts than support and love and well done and...

Juliana McClane (25:49)
Yes.

Hamish (25:53)
that respect and that nurture. I'm sure it's just certainly, know, maybe if you've done that, do that, go to your room. And there is that disempowering. And I think, you know, I was listening to something the other day about therapists, you know, if you, if you isolate, well then, you know, this is a wounding because of this. And if you do this, then it's this because of this. So, you know, the pedestal, the,

The therapist is on that pedestal and, know, I must be, I'm isolating because I actually like quiet. I like that solitude. I must be playing into a wound still, you know, giving my power away.

Juliana McClane (26:31)
Because again, we have this concept they know more than we know. They are therapies. They have already this flag. they went to a specific school and they have the knowledge. Yeah, but do they have the experience? They have the knowledge, they read books, but do they have the experience? Because we move in a reality where you need to have the experience of life, not the knowledge from the book. The other day speaking with a friend,

and me myself going to this psych-created therapy because me myself, I go to my own chaos and I need kind of this assistance. And I realized I was hurting myself go in this kind of clinic and open myself up because they know better, because they have studies and I put them on pedestal and whatever they say, that's me, I'm wrong. When I realized, no, man, no, you cannot see me, you cannot feel me, you are not have the experience, you have the knowledge, but that's not make you above.

So we give to them as if they know more. No, they just know what they know. But you put them up and then you take them their guidance as if you are wrong, you are depressed when the reality, no, I'm isolating myself because I need to recharge because I really feel my soul has to recharge to sit in my own cave for one month, for two months, for three months to really recharge energetically because it's not mine.

Hamish (27:30)
Hmm.

Juliana McClane (27:57)
We are soul beings. So again, it's we who give the part away because we believe they have the knowledge. We has been taught go to school because they have the knowledge. Yes, we need to give us the steps to navigate, but that's it. Don't tell you to me who I am and what I am. You don't live in this. You don't watch my experience. So that's how I'm seeing like again with therapist and, the therapist told me I'm trauma and I have this and that.

Okay.

Hamish (28:26)
Yeah. Yep. You have, we have. I have, have stuff that happened that has caused me to see things, do things, be things in certain ways. I think, yeah, they're...

They have their place. They really do because they have that insight and that awareness. So I'm not saying all therapists are, it's a waste of time, but I think if you look at things like what is the success rate of people doing the Tim Robbins courses and the Jack Hansfield and you know, actually going through these courses and changing their lives, it's, it's low because you are using somebody else's model. You are using somebody else's experiences and trying to fit your

round peg into a smaller square hole, you know, it's just not going to work. But you can you can learn from them, but you cannot.

Juliana McClane (29:12)
Exactly.

follow in that degree. Exactly. Yeah, I'm agree with you. I don't say that all are wrong because they're therapists with knowledge, but with experience as well. you see, so that's why I think like we go to someone or I go to YIG, so I will know what to do, but that can just give you the fundamental of what you need. But the rest you have to trust yourself. It has to come from yourself. Otherwise you try to fit in someone's sales box.

Hamish (29:17)
Yeah.

Bye.

Juliana McClane (29:44)
What about if you cannot fit in someone else's You are bigger than that, but you squeeze yourself because you think they have the answer for you. And then you try to squeeze and make yourself small when actually you need to be out of that box.

Hamish (29:59)
It's fascinating. Why do we do it then? Why do we give away our power? Why do we limit ourselves? Why do we not actually achieve that potential that we have? Because there's got to be a reason for it.

Juliana McClane (30:16)
Yeah, again, it's because how we grow up, we go to school, the teacher know the best. And we as being like, like, parents told us, don't do that, don't do this, shut up, da-dum, and say, okay, they have the answer. And then we go to school and the teacher say this, this, this, they have the answer. So we always have this perception. We look on TV and they say this, this, this, they have the answer. And like this, we are kind of being

programmed to believe that some people from the outside have the answer for us as an individual and then we shut down that part of ourselves that can actually get curious, can actually have the answer from within, can actually know from within the answer, not from the outside. So I see it. That's how we starting this giving power away and believing that outside of us are the answer.

when you don't give a chance to yourself to find the answer for Moutine because your mother don't told you, hey, listen to yourself, what's coming there? What do you think is the truth? What do you think? What's coming to you when you ask me this question? Like look of the kids today, they are mind blowing because the parents are going to the spiritual way now and they're aware this generation is just gold, mine gold on earth. And the kids...

10 years they have such a knowledge I'm mind blowing because they are allowing the parents allowing them to listen yourself. What do you think? What's coming to you? Not, I will tell you what is it to go in your room and shut down and don't tell me this. This is bullshit stuff and la la la. So is the programmed idea, the way we grow up, the way you go to school, which country you live, more suppress the country, more you shut off those.

side of you, that intuition, that gut feeling, that knowingness, because we are humans and we want to look outside for confirmation. Like, okay, what I believe is true. But when there is not confirmation and everybody say you are a GD, that's not true, then slowly, slowly that knowingness, you just put it down because there's nothing from the outside to tell you, you are right. Trust yourself, whatever, trust yourself. And that's how we are.

start to follow instead of leading, leading ourself, leading our life. And we start to give power to others to tell us that's what it is, that's how it is, there where it goes. Tell us like, no, I take the power of my life. I choosing where I go, I choose you how to feel, and I'm choosing what I want to create. You are not having the power to deal, to lead my life, my.

in a world to tell me I'm not right when a voice inside me screaming that hey take yourself together like hey like don't look for confirmation don't look for validation that's where I go don't look for validation outside of you you will not find it more you trust that more you it will come to you those humans that can validate you and trusting yourself Hamish believe in yourself

Yeah, maybe I'm not, but believe if you feel it is feeling right. So that's the truth. Do you want me to confirm you? I'm here to tell you like, yeah, take it. It's your inner voice. So I see it as such. That's how I grow up. That's like being in this box. And my mom says, shut up, shut up, shut up. Until I realized, my gosh, I was to true marriage and I could not speak up because my mom constantly tell me, shut up, shut up, shut up.

and because it's going in my brain and I could not speak up. And that's how I realized, my gosh, my own mom. Like look how can affecting us in growing and moving on in life. So that's my way of seeing it, why we follow. Because it's easy to follow than just trust that and don't look for validation outside. Yeah, yeah, okay, everybody go to the the crowd is go to the left.

Nobody go to the right. Okay, maybe go to the left and to the right because there are not so many. You see what I mean? Trust that inner. And there will not be many people walking that path. But go for it because you will not, don't find validation outside of you when the voice from within speaking. And again, go to the soul. That's who is speaking to you. So is the...

is how we have been grow up, the mind, how the mind has been programmed. So that's my perspective.

Hamish (35:05)
Yeah. TV, television programs. That's what they were called back in the 80s and 90s. Programs, programs. Do it this way, do it that way. So the whole world gaslights us. Society gaslights us. Parents, teachers, knowingly or unknowingly. I don't think it's all, is it all deliberate? Is it all a conspiracy?

Juliana McClane (35:09)
Yay!

Pro is pro.

No,

no, it's just unknowingly because they themselves do the same and they think that is the life. That's the reality. As I say, the ego creates the illusion. That's how it is. And you cannot jump over it. You try, but then you are cuckoo. Like, what do you think you are? Like, come back and sit down, you know, like sit down. Don't try to fly away. So it's not conscious. It's so...

unconscious because they themselves believe as being truth. So it's not... we cannot say, it's their fault. No, they don't know. They don't know better. But now we know better. And then we have to choose to take the other direction. Let the crowd go where they want to go. But we go there where we feel we have to go. So that's where the change starts.

Hamish (36:13)
Yeah. And I think one thing that you, one thing that you really mentioned there several times is this, this validation. It's great getting validated. However, I think the important thing is, is not to seek it. know, coincidences, no, not coincidences, synchronicities for me is that external validation. That is, you know, I'm on the right path. Sometimes.

Juliana McClane (36:23)
Yes.

Hamish (36:40)
They are just coming like that, synchronicity, synchronicity. And that's like, that is external validation that I'm on the right path. I'm doing the right thing.

Yeah, I guess the only other way is this will, yeah, this is what I wanted to ask you. Okay, meditation. I have to slow down. I have to get out of my head and get into my heart and feel trust. These are all what I'm taking from what you said is not listening and accepting everything else that's been said, but being curious, as you said. Is that curiosity, is that taking the lenses off and seeing the world really raw? that?

Is that a way of doing it? Is that possible?

Juliana McClane (37:23)
Curiosity is a part of our inner child that wants to discover the world and is curious what is there? What is there that I don't know that playground but I want to go there to see what it is. I think curiosity is part of our inner child. I don't know if it's that to take those glasses off but maybe to expand the vision of those glasses. Actually I can say that, is to expand the vision.

is to, from small glasses to make more big, you know, almost half of your face if you have to image something like such. So I think it's to expand the vision curiosity is for. And...

And is our inner child that wants to discover the world, wants to know more what is there, wants to... Yeah, to see what is there more that I don't know. But I go on a playground where I'm not so familiar with, but I'm curious to see what kind of game going on there. If I like it, I go more deep. If I don't, thank you, but I don't feel I resonate with. So...

just change another direction, be curious of something else. So that's how I see curiosity for me, at least. That is an expansion of vision and of seeing more of what you want, what you don't want. Let us say, be curious. And if you go somewhere where you don't like it, it's not for me. I mean, with all the respect, you like it, fantastic. But that's why we are unique individual.

But it's not for me, so I'm just pull back myself and I go another direction where I feel like that's resonating more with me.

So, yeah.

Hamish (39:12)
Curiosity is healthy, isn't it? Could be a good name for podcast, couldn't it? Curiosity. Hmm. Yeah.

Juliana McClane (39:17)
Yeah!

Yeah!

Hamish (39:20)
I just want to, I want to go back a little bit. this, making your own decisions, being curious. think an aspect of that is actually taking, as we said, taking back your own agency, but you also having to take responsibility. I think you're also having to take accountability for your choices. And I know for many people that is really scary.

My whole concept of being free, freedom is everybody says they want it, but freedom requires you, me to be accountable. You know, that terrible four letter word accountable. And going, yeah, I have some really shit behaviors. I have some really shit patterns. And as you said, getting curious about them. But when I go back to that meditation, because I cannot...

see my patterns, I cannot see where I give my power away unless I slow down, unless I really stop and stop judging myself and stop, hankering to social media, hankering, as we said, to, to gurus and let's say therapists and coaches and counselors and this is and that's, and, just bouncing from idea to idea. need to

sort of, as you said, get curious and think about those things. Maybe feel them, not think them, feel about these things. Yeah, so how do I do that? How do I get to that place where I'm actually...

Juliana McClane (40:51)
If you thought.

Hamish (41:01)
Slowing down, consciously slowing down to be that curious, to be the observer, to, you said it earlier on, going up and down that ladder, looking at things from different perspectives.

Juliana McClane (41:12)
slowing down.

Okay, the society is used or we was being taught to move, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do,

Slow down actually is to come close to ourself. When we come close to ourself, we have time to analyze. When Annalala analyze things, we start to feel like, this is right, this is wrong, Like, what the heck was that about actually, you know? So.

When you slow down,

You have the time to feel into them what is for you, what is not. Let's say, I don't know my patterns. I don't know what I'm doing. I don't know. But when you have time to slow down and kind of look back, observe yourself after the situation has happened and go back in the situation. what I said. what they said. how I felt. that's felt a little bit weird. Why, why, why I feel now kind of analyze your own actions, your own.

experience like sitting low sit down and analyze what was this day about and then you have another perspective one when you are in action and then when you sit down and look back and was like wow okay now I have totally another perspective like what the heck was that about and slowly by doing this you start to see like I don't like this or that was a weird way of saying but I was not so pay attention because I was on you know

maybe playing a specific game because we are used to play something when we are out there. Just not that we are conscious, we are just in a playing mode, so to say. So actually in this way, you can actually be aware of more what are you doing often or if you have time to analyze your own actions and your own sayings and your own behavior.

you will actually see and if you are willing, you'll actually start to see, to feel what is right, what you want, what is working for you, what is not working for you. When you are in the wounds, everything is perfect. You cannot see, but when you are willing and try to slow down, try to want to slow down,

You start to notice something. Why the corona has happened. The whole humanity have to slow down. What's happening in this period? So many people divorce. So many go away from each other. So many things has happened. Why? Because they were forced to stay more together. And slow down. And no going to do, to do, to do. More to stay, feel, to get annoyed.

And that's what it means slowing down. What's happening is slowing down. A lot of shit come up, let's say, because they had time to see, to feel it and to say, this shit is not working out for me anymore. Like it's not working out. That is the secret of slowing down is to really start to feel what's working for you or not. And based on that, you can choose what you want and then figure out what are you doing that's not working out for you, but you are doing it.

Hamish (44:20)
You

Juliana McClane (44:44)
What are you choosing? I choose this because this is my pattern, because that's how I live. That's what I taught to be, to believe, to behave. And then you go on live choosing that. But now when you're growing up, you have another, maturity is kicking in and you start to... Yeah, that's the secret of slowing down, to feel and to choose what's working for you or not.

Hamish (45:10)
It's painful.

Juliana McClane (45:10)
Yes.

Hamish (45:11)
It is painful and I look at my patterns, I look at my behaviour and think, I was a complete asshole, I was horrible, I was this and then I'm going to shame myself and then I'm going to get cross and angry and then it's... How do I reconcile that? How do I...

suddenly realize I have been horrible. You know, I've hurt people, have upset people, I have done all these, I'm not saying despicable, but I've done all these unkind things. I've not been kind, I've not been nice and...

You know, there's a lot of shame there. There's a lot of regret. There's a lot of embarrassment. You know, I, as you said, I've, I've slowed down. I'm seeing them. I'm seeing them for the first time. So how can I not beat myself up for that? How can I not go fuck it? I'm a horrible person. I'm going to run away and hide. I'm going to drink. I'm going to numb. I'm just going to avoid.

even acknowledging these things. Because I have to do something with that awareness. Otherwise, am I going to keep on doing it? I mean, this is is stuff I'm struggling with from time to time, sometimes all the time. And I really don't know what, you know, how to work past some of these things.

Juliana McClane (46:39)
acknowledge him take responsibility and say holy crap I fuck her up like shit I feel so ashamed like how this is me who I did it like I cannot believe and the same time doing that so you feel how you hurt yourself because it's not you who did it it's not you conscious who did it is still those wounds is still

that shadow that is still in there, that is one to be acknowledged, taking responsibility and say, okay, Juliana, we fuck it up big time. What can we do about it? Nothing more than just take responsibility for it and say, okay, we did it. We fuck it up. What now? Learn. It's like, how can you forgive yourself? Learn to forgive yourself.

Like, okay, it's not me. It's not me. It's the shadow. It's the dark side of me. It's the devil within me who did that. It's the shadow. It's not me. But I have to take responsibility. How can I change this? First, this has to take the forgiveness for self. Take accountability. Take responsibility and recognize for yourself. I fuck it up. What can I do about nothing? I cannot repair those doings.

But I can recognize to the world, I fuck it up. Sorry. Do I did it conscious? No. I was myself in shadow. I was myself blind. I was not there conscious. And I feel so sorry and so bad for hurting other people for doing this. I was not there. What can I do? What can I do? More is just to recognize your shit and to forgive yourself. And is there people you hurt?

So say, I'm sorry, it was not me. I'm seeing now from another perspective and I kind of fuck it up big time. I just want to say sorry, because now I'm seeing how much I hurt you for doing what I done. But just taking responsibility and forgive and recognize that that's not you. That's not you. As I said, we are light and we are dark and we always playing out one the other, one the other, till we try to find a more balance and start to be aware like,

okay. Now the ego, the shadow start to take over because something is trigger based in my childhood and now ego wants to take and then it's BOOM and this reaction or whatever there is. So to blame ourselves, that's the first things that coming to blame ourselves. And my gosh, you are such a awful person. It's just I fuck it up, recognize for yourself and it's okay. I was blind. I could not see it. I could not feel it. I fuck it up and it's okay.

Forgive myself. It's okay. I cannot I cannot make it right right now But I can recognize it and one is recognize that then something in you is changed something you use like, okay So recognize the dark side of yourself, but don't be afraid. Don't punish yourself. Don't put yourself down Don't shame yourself because we are there with white and black. It's just to be aware of it But it's part of who we are

We cannot separate it from us. But we have just to embrace them and say, yeah, I am this fucking awful girl. Yes, I'm this fucking bastard that I fuck up things. Yeah, what can I do? I recognize it. I take it in and I'm okay with have that side of me, but being aware don't play the same game. Because when you are aware and you recognize you fuck her up, but then, they forgive me so I can fuck her up again. no, no, no, no, no.

If you do it again, then it's like you break everything. So blaming, no. Forgive yourself. Recognize you fucker up. Take out accountability and say sorry. Yes, it's fucking, it's not easy for some to say sorry that they fucker up because it's like recognize, I am an awful person. But it's not you. Is your shadow speaking?

Hamish (50:30)
Thank

Juliana McClane (50:56)
I swear it's not you, your essence who you are. It's your shadow that makes you blind. It's the pain, it's the trauma, it's those experiences. It's not you. So those who have the awareness, they will understand. But when you take responsibility for your own bad doings and realizing that you cannot change, but you can recognize that, yeah, I may not be so nice sometimes and I see it now.

I'm sorry, I really do, but really feel it in your beingness, not just from your mouth and mind, because if I say it and I'm doing it or be, no, it's to really feeling in your beingness. So forgive, recognize, and be okay with say sorry, be okay with recognize to the other person, yeah, you was right, I fuck it up big time, but I see it now and I'm sorry.

And I want to say to you, I'm really sorry. Like, can we repair this if there's something to be repaired? Can we take, let's say, our relationship further? Because I know of Akira, but now I'm seeing and I'm willing to do something. Then there's another story. But that's first step to actually open a door to whatever next experience to happen. To be, everybody wants to be free, but they...

They misunderstand the freedom. Actually, freedom is coming with so much responsibility, actually. They don't know that. It's coming with so much responsibility. More free you are, more responsibility you have. Because freedom is not to do the bullshit. Freedom is to be your free self, to say what you think, to say what you feel, but take responsibility for everything what you say, for everything what you do.

That's the freedom.

Hamish (52:51)
Yeah, I like that. I like that a lot. A couple of things cropped up. I think, as you said, forgive yourself, apologize, and then change your behavior. Because if you're just going to apologize without making a behavior change, you're just lying. You're not promising. And the other thing that cropped up there was you said it's an unconscious pattern. It's an unconscious behavior. Go back to the lenses. You've got your specs on.

Juliana McClane (53:05)
Exactly. Exactly.

Hmm.

Hamish (53:20)
It's a blob just there that you can't see. So that awareness, you can now scrape that little bit of dirt off your specs and apologize. Yep. And you know, you can now see differently. You can now see how that behavior materialized and, and, know, you're human, do your best not to do it again. Yep. Makes a lot of sense. Life's easy, isn't it?

Juliana McClane (53:45)
Yeah.

It is easy with awareness. I'm slowing down.

Hamish (53:49)
with awareness and slowing down and

being aware that we've been gaslighted and being aware that society just tells us to do this and this and this because I don't know why it does. Yeah, cool. So yeah, take your own, take your own accountability. Take your agency back. Be curious.

What else? Slow down. Yeah. I think we've nailed it and we've got to the hour. mean, Julianna, this was a great conversation. It really, it really was. You've given me a lot to think about. And I think there's some, lots of, lots of people listening will have some, some questions maybe, maybe they can put some, ask some questions and say, what about this? What about that? Because it's a big topic and

Juliana McClane (54:14)
Slow down. Slow down. Yeah.

Hamish (54:40)
Becoming accountable is scary because you have to as you said, know, I'm sorry. I fucked up I did this I did that

Juliana McClane (54:46)
is to recognize, yeah,

is to recognize the shitty things that you do because we want to be perfect. We play this perfect type of who we are and we are perfect. But no, we are not. We are fucking up and it's not easy to recognize. Like, it's not easy, but that's strain. Yeah, exactly. That's what I also want to bring the awareness like. But we are the balls. We are the light and the dark. And of course, it's

Hamish (55:07)
We're also human.

Juliana McClane (55:16)
both balls in the air and playing out. And being human, it's walking through the shit, doing shit, but saying, I saw it, yeah, later, but I saw it. And then you clean up, get away, learn from it, and move forward. So, responsibility for everything, speaking, doing, saying, and...

You may change your mind afterwards, but okay, say it, speaking, it's okay to change your mind, but speak it. It's not that, yeah, so.

Hamish (55:54)
And I think the important thing is to remember we are human, to remember that some days I have all the energy in the world and I can move a mountain and some days I haven't the energy to pick up a piece of dust and both are okay. I think that's really important because for years people have told me I've been harder myself and I've been softer and softer and still I'm harder myself and...

Juliana McClane (56:07)
Yes. Yeah.

Hamish (56:19)
Yeah, that's just conditioning and I'm getting better at it, you know, but I'm human.

Juliana McClane (56:27)
Exactly. We have to embrace the human aspect of us and to know that that's how it is. And it's not that we don't move. And as you say, like you learn to be soft, but you are still hard. But this peeling off the layers, another layer of that, another layer. And who knows how many layers there are. That's why it's like peeling off, peeling off, peeling off. How many? I don't know. You don't need to think about. Just do your pain process of peeling off.

and be okay with accepting that human.

Hamish (57:00)
I'm human, be curious, slow down, yeah and and have fun I think, have fun.

Juliana McClane (57:08)
yeah, but that's why we are actually on earth, to have fun. To enjoy this human experience. To really have fun.

Hamish (57:17)
I think the human experience will be a conversation for another time because I think that will be a really, really interesting one. Yeah.

Juliana McClane (57:25)
super excited about it already!

Hamish (57:27)
Yep, we

will do that one another time before too long. Well, my friend, thank you. Thank you very much for today. Any insights you want to share or?

Juliana McClane (57:38)
Slow down, accept your doings, look in the mirror with all that shit and be okay to look in the mirror at yourself. Forgive yourself, take responsibility and take it step by step. No rush to process. Don't go in the Ferrari and press the speed. Just take it slowly because more slow you are,

More clearly you see.

Hamish (58:09)
Brilliant. Thank you very much.

Juliana McClane (58:11)
Thank you.