The Crucible:Conversations for the Curious

Hamish (00:29)
Hi everybody and welcome to another episode of the Crucible, Conversations for the Curious. I'm here today with AJ. We met on Facebook a couple of months ago and he has got an incredible story. But more importantly than that, it's what he's doing now with his life is why we've connected, why we are chatting because this man has made sense of a lifetime which was a struggle and he's come out the other side.

with some scars like most of us, but he is able to shine and he is making something truly remarkable. So AJ, my friend, thank you so much for turning up today.

AJ Lovewins (01:08)
Yeah, thanks Hamish. It's great. You know, great to have been invited on your podcast and I appreciate what you're doing. So yeah, looking forward to this session.

Hamish (01:21)
so AJ, tell me a little bit about your life. Let's start right at the beginning from day one.

AJ Lovewins (01:28)
Yes, so I was adopted. I don't know if you know that, but my father was an alcoholic. I was told later my mother had some mental health challenges and they were both amazing people at the same time, of course. He was a sergeant in the military and died when he was 43 in...

Germany during the Cold War. So I never got a chance to meet him. But I did meet my mother about five years ago, tracked her down. State laws changed and the files became available to the public. But, you know, I went into an adopted family, like white middle class up in Washington state and had three sisters, another adopted sister in that family. And

We had a great life. mean, I remember, you know, being taken to the mountains and rivers. My dad was a nature lover.

introduced us to meditation and theater and it was a very arts and culture kind of upbringing. But, you know, they lined us up when we were eight years, when I was eight years old and sat us on the couch and told us that they were getting a divorce, which was surprised to us kids because we had never seen them fight, you know. I later realized that I grew up in a household where emotions were suppressed, you know, from the parental

perspective and that's been something that I think has made it challenging for me over the years. Just having to sort of relearn how to be in an emotional body in this lifetime. There's lots of other parts to that which I'm sure you have insights to as well.

childhood trauma and childhood neglect in some way. But you know, on surface level, I was very fortunate. You know, we had all the toys and, know, wonderful Christmases and all that kind of thing. But I did miss that family structure when it broke apart at eight years old. It was sort of the second wave after being adopted, you know.

I realized I was adopted at a young age and I was different and wasn't a natural born child and then the family breaks apart again and it's of this second wound for a child. And I went into, I guess, a period probably from like eight until I was 12 where I had lots of rage episodes and I would like, know.

break all my BMX trophies from races I had won, know, biking with a baseball bat, you know, in my room. I remember that one day. just like, everything, know. I would flip the table, you know, kind of stuff, right? I didn't know how to, again, process emotions, right? So I'd get bottled up and I think all the fear and the stress and the uncertainty of, you know, being in this family.

dynamic, you know, and having, you know, whatever things I was preloaded with, you know, coming from a father who was an alcoholic and a mother with mental health stuff, you know, that's just how it showed up. And, you know, it wasn't long after that.

you know, into like 13, 14, 15, where, you know, I was just, I became unbearable, you know, to both of those parents, you know, I was, stay with my father for a while. He would pass me off to my mother because he couldn't handle me. She would, you know, deal with me for a while and pass me back to my father. I was like a hot potato. Nobody wanted, right? I was loved, but they just didn't know what to do with me and had limited parenting skills as many parents do. It's completely understandable.

But I came home at 14 after doing a bunch of stuff I shouldn't have done. I threw a big party at the house when my parents were out of town. Half the high school came and tore the house to shreds.

you know, like took the car without a, I didn't have a driver's license. And it was just the straw that broke the camel's back. And, you know, came back home with all of my stuff packed on the porch in a box, you know, and that was it. The door was locked and it was good luck hit. you know, fortunately I had a best friend who, you know, had a foster, his parents, you know, had foster license. And so they took me in to that next family.

And that next family really became my rock. There was just a level of empathy and understanding and sort of cooler heads prevail mentality that they had. And that fact that I was friends with their son was a big deal because I went from having three sisters to having a brother. And I really needed that brother and I really needed those cool heads at that time.

And they were the Kool-Aid family. All the kids in the neighborhood would come over to their house. There was always sodas and things to do. they were just very, they were the kind of people that walk the talk. They don't talk about God or.

know, spirituality or religion, you know, they just live it, you know, in their actions and very, very just loving, salt to the earth kind of people. That was a great experience for me. But that's a snapshot of kind of right up until, you know, my high school days, I guess, end of high school.

Hamish (07:21)
it's quite traumatic. but that must have really made you wonder why it happened and how it happened. And I guess it probably triggered some self-worth and really what is life all about?

So how did you feel when you you moved in with your your best mate and his his parents? How did that differential having a brother rather than sisters? What difference did that make to your life?

AJ Lovewins (07:50)
I mean, it was just a soft landing, you know.

I was coming from a situation where I had parents that...

didn't want me anymore, couldn't handle me. I think coming into a situation where, hey, we would love to have you, let us set up an extra bed for you. know what I mean? We love you. Like that was such a from to shift from, you know.

my mother's boyfriend holding me in a full Nelson while she slapped me or my dad sort of wrestling me to the ground in the backyard.

arguing with him, know, kind of thing, you know, and just that those feelings of just feeling like this is unworkable. My life is unworkable. I'm unlovable. I think coming into a situation that was the opposite of that was life changing.

Hamish (08:58)
So how did that then, so what age were you when you joined the, go. So what age were you when you joined your new family and how did that impact your school life and growing up from there?

AJ Lovewins (09:13)
Well, that's a great question. I was like 14, 15, and I think it was my freshman year in high school. Not only did they take me in, they took in another boy at the time who is my other brother, Miley. so I had two brothers actually, and you know.

We ran, we were thick as thieves through high school. I mean, were three musketeers. There was a lot of beer. There was a lot of antics and acting out. mean.

We were probably way too handsome. That was young as young men and leaned into that way too much. And it was just a lot of girls beer and rock and roll through high school. We were good guys, but we didn't know any limits when it came to having fun. And I think that that was a setup for what was to come. But we were fortunate to have.

Bob and Ruby as our parents and what they provided for us probably saved all of our lives.

Hamish (10:34)
sounds like they were a remarkable pair of people. I remember seeing on your Facebook page that you had picture of Ruby and you could just see that love and compassion, the memories that you guys had from growing up and things.

AJ Lovewins (10:37)
Yeah.

I mean, look,

I acknowledge all of those who brought me into this world, from my adopted parents to my biological parents. Everyone has given me so much, obviously, But Bob and Ruby, I feel are...

foundational in the work that I do today, know, that their teachings and their love is foundational in the work that I do and the way that I view the world and, you know, the level of altruism, you know, that I aspire to for sure, you know.

Hamish (11:31)
Yeah. So take me forward a few years. You're now in high school and unlike all boys, you're young, you're good looking, the beer flows, and as you said, there's no limits. I remember that. It's fond. It's a fond memory of drinking too much and having fun and occasionally throwing up and whatever. It's seemingly harmless and you're invincible, aren't you, when you're your late teens and things like that?

AJ Lovewins (11:33)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah.

you know, this is a part of our culture, right? I think not just in America, but globally, you know, this sort of coming of age, youth integration with alcohol, with substances, with these things that

You know, lot of addicts will talk, recovering addicts will talk about, you know, their belief that alcohol and drugs saved them, you know, at a certain point, and then it was what killed them, it began to kill them at a certain point. And so, you know, I do think, I do think there is probably some truth in that for me in those early years in that I was.

you know, that rage might be someplace to look, right? And then, you know, just that those tools that I was missing, you know, in my toolkit to process, you know, what was happening internally. And I think some of it just got suppressed and, you know, pushed underneath. you know, it was replaced with, you know, those good times, right? And...

and seeking that euphoria, seeking that belonging, seeking that, you all these things that we find through this culture of using, know, imbibing, right? And we see it everywhere, right? It's very prominent in Western culture and, you know, a lot of cultures, but, you know, the bars are full.

You know, that's people grind during the week and they go out and they and they drink and use on the weekends and you know and and You know, it's like there's a cost and an impact for that, know that I found in my life personally That didn't work any longer

and for yourself as well, right? And so many blessings have come from my journey into recovery, you know? But it got darker before it got better for sure, you know? And from the time that I left high school, which I dropped out my senior year, moved to Hollywood, you know? you know...

I wasn't addressing that big wave that was growing behind me, know, the monster, right? That would someday, you know, tackle me and bring me to my knees. And, you know, I had dreams and aspirations when I got to Hollywood. You know, I got into acting, you know, started writing. I did stand up for a while. And, you know.

it continued to progress like our disease does. And I found myself, you know, within that first 10 years in my 20s in Los Angeles, you know, waking up in, you know, motels on Sunset Boulevard, you know, with people I didn't know and, you know, like, kiting checks, you know, at the bank, you know, you know, doing

things that I wouldn't normally do and ending up in places I wouldn't normally end up and having consequences that were continuing to stack up in intensity and consequence. It was like, I think 2000, right around 2000, everything fell out from under me.

And that was the beginning to becoming homeless. I couldn't hang on anymore to this double life, trying to hide my addiction to my mainstream kind of normie friends. And I was trying to show, I sold a screenplay towards the end of that decade and blew all the money and ended up.

bitter and resentful and addicted and it just all went down the drain in a very sad way.

those next three years.

you know, would really be a defining time, you know, for me on the streets in San Francisco,

Hamish (16:00)
that's what happens there doesn't it takes a series of events and each one knocks you down and it gets more and more difficult to climb back up. I hear when it comes to the the addiction, it does save people's lives for a while. It's a crutch and it stops you breaking because you've got that thing to lean on. But as you said, you know, it begins to break. It begins to impact your body.

AJ Lovewins (16:09)
Mm-hmm.

I think you're asking, was I aware that there was a problem that was not being addressed before I was forced to address it?

Hamish (16:34)
Exactly that. Thinking, it's difficult to think back, but were you aware of, I have got the mother of all hangovers and it's only Tuesday and I had one on Monday,

AJ Lovewins (16:43)
Yes. Yeah.

know, like I remember, you know, like, I would go and give blood, donate blood, and they would pay you for that 40 bucks or something back in the day. And then I would take a dollar or two of that and go buy a 7-Eleven hot dog, you know, and maybe like a candy bar.

And I would take the other money and I would go buy crack cocaine. And it occurred to me that I was literally like selling my internal fluids, my blood for drugs. And it just, I knew I was doing it. I couldn't stop doing it, but I was aware of how insane that was, right?

Like I'm homeless, I'm selling my blood and I'm smoking crack with the money, you know, I'm barely feeding myself. So this is the disease of addiction. This is why, why they call it a disease in my opinion is because it's progressive and it mimics.

diseases like cancer that are destroying us, literally like taking over our body, destroying our minds, killing us. And there's some driver of that and that is, is still very misunderstood concept of addiction and alcoholism. It's not moral, it's like very good people from moms to teachers to...

community leaders, veterans, you know, are struggling in this country with this disease, you know, and it's eating them alive, literally like it was eating me alive at that time when I was, you know.

Hamish (18:36)
you mentioned one really crucial thing there and that was moral. I lost my moral compass. I did not know which, what was right, what was wrong, what was okay and what wasn't. and you said you've got those mums, those dads you've got.

business people, you've got anybody taking drugs, drinking and madness, but they cannot connect the fact that that is madness because it's just routine, it is just normal. And it is really, really tough to be able to join those dots because as you said, your moral compass has gone awry and it's normalized, you've normalized that chaos and it's very

AJ Lovewins (19:00)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Hamish (19:18)
difficult to appreciate that and then go step back and hey, what's gone wrong?

AJ Lovewins (19:24)
Exactly. Then I think one of the critical pieces for me and for others that I've talked to was dealing with this shame piece, you know, and dealing with this guilt piece in the journey of healing. Right. And so for many people, not just addicts and alcoholics, I think, you know, we behave in certain ways in our lifetime and

Ultimately, we get to these new vantage points, right? And then we are able to turn around and look at, see where we've traveled. And for myself, when I was able to get sober and find that new vantage point and turn around, what I saw was horrifying, right? And I had so much judgment of myself and so much shame, and I couldn't forgive myself for the things that I was pointing to, saying bad person, bad guy, look at you, unlovable, unworthy, look what you did.

And I think it's incredibly important for we as addicts to continue to work on that piece and to teach that piece to people who are coming, who are just beginning their journey of transformation around drugs and alcohol because...

I have a friend, he spent a large percentage of his life in prison and I asked him, what's the number one thing for you that you see that has been a blocker for you in your journey? He said shame. And went for myself, when the shame piece is there, how does that show up? Well, it shows up, it keeps me from...

going to coffee with somebody, know, and sitting down and being vulnerable and having a conversation because I'm just like, I'm ashamed, right? I'm ashamed. I don't want to reveal myself. I don't want to put myself in a position where I might have to reveal myself. You know, I don't want to raise my hand at that meeting because I'm ashamed of myself. I feel guilty. I feel unworthy. feel...

I feel unlovable, you know, and so it's just a blocker in so many areas that are so important to transformation that it's almost one of the first pieces I think that should be addressed in recovery, you know, or therapy when people are coming off the streets. There's a lot of stuff that happens out there, you know, that isn't who people are, you know, but just keep it on homelessness. It's like...

once you lose everything or you lose enough to end up on the streets, you're in a traumatic situation. Boom, day one. It's like you just stepped into a new dimension of reality where you are forced into primal living, right? Primal thinking. You are forced into your animal instincts, right?

to survive, it is very understandable that you would look for some kind of substance or some kind of medicine to deal with the spikes of trauma, the spikes of fear, the spikes of loneliness that are now part of your existence. And so, if you're not a drug addict, when you get to the streets, you probably are in the high 90 % range of becoming one very quickly.

And if you do, and as you do, or even if you don't, you're 100 % going to fall into animalistic sort of primal mindsets from time to time, if not all the time. And there, it's like, you do what you have to do to survive, period, and anyone would.

Not that people are bad, not that I was bad on the streets, but.

to say that it's understandable, it's excusable even, and it's critical to forgive ourselves for that, if we are coming from that place. Because I do.

deeply believe that anyone would fall into that. And there, I will say some people, it's very rare from my experience, end up on the streets and they are just gentlemen and they are ladies and they seem unaffected by it all. And those people that I have met that are able to...

achieve that, have a very, very strong faith. They have some kind of relationship to God, or they have some kind of toolkit that they had before they ended up in that situation that allows them to process through those intense experiences, right? But I would say that those are far and few between from all the work that I've done in doing outreach and being on the streets and being homeless myself. I would love to see more people who are

navigating homelessness have those tools and that level of faith so that they can more quickly adapt or get off the streets depending on what they want to do. But it's rare and we don't teach those things to people who are in those situations. We don't bring that technology to them. don't, you know, you know, the Brene Browns and Tony Robbins and workshops and, you know, men's groups and all that kind of stuff. It's just generally available or marketed to kind of

middle management executives, mid-level executives that can afford it or poor communities don't have access to the quality personal transformation, personal growth sector because it's expensive. What's the ROI on taking that to the streets and teaching people in shelters? It's like nobody.

You know, people don't see a return on investment. I do personally, and that's the work that I'm invested in. It's like, do I take the things that have helped me and others that I know from 12-Step to Landmark to Science of Mind to whatever, yoga, meditation, the list goes on. How do we take that, put it into a triage sort of toolkit and deploy it across the country and places where people are really suffering and actually probably need it the most, right?

Hamish (25:32)
I'm looking forward to you tell me a little bit more about your outreach and what you're doing because I know that's a remarkable, a remarkable part of your life. I want to just, just go back to, as you said, you're on people on the streets. There's all that shame.

My comprehension of shame is every moment we're living, we are doing the best that we can. You're on the streets, you're in survival mode, you've got to steal some food. You're stealing that food to keep yourself alive. It's not good behavior, but it's understandable, as you said. And for me, the only way I could mitigate shame was realize that everything I did

wasn't okay, it was protecting me. I was doing the best I could. And that probably was the most important way I managed to navigate my way.

out into sobriety and not falling back into drink, not falling back and relapsing because I realized that yeah, it wasn't good behavior, but I was doing my best, the best that I could. And I think you've nailed it there, showing people, giving them that toolkit. Hey, look, you are doing the best that you can.

AJ Lovewins (26:37)
Mm-hmm.

Hamish (26:44)
Yes, so I'm pretty sure that the most powerful aid that took me out of addiction and into recovery was understanding that I'm doing the best that I could. The behavior wasn't okay, but Hamish is a person, he wasn't a bad person, he was in survival mode.

AJ Lovewins (27:06)
what I can say is I think that you're absolutely right.

in that.

We need to help people, I believe, and the public, begin to...

find workarounds for this reactive sort of judgmental kind of way that we interpret and work with behaviors that are unwholesome or...

unproductive or self harming or destructive otherwise that happen when people are in high stress situations or homelessness or addiction, mental health challenges, things like this.

Yes, no, first of all, like we, you know, we're promoting bad behavior at all. But what I'm saying is it's been incredibly powerful for me to have people see me and acknowledge me despite those mistakes, you know, that I've made.

right? And those wrongdoings that I have done, right? I mean, I'm not trying to say that there aren't things that are wrong or bad that I've done or that other people do. I'm just saying it's incredibly powerful medicine when someone steps forward and sees through that and sees the essence of who you are.

and speaks into your possibility as a human being and your beauty and your potential, right? Because it can kind of help those things fall away. And as they fall away, you begin to have less attachment to them. And as you begin to have less attachment to them, you begin to have a clearing for healing, which is ultimately what we want is to move people away from these things, right? And so the judgment mind, the critical mind, the self-loathing mind, it just becomes very...

dense and unhelpful in terms of like getting to the net net of what we really want, which is like healing and transformation, you know, and I think for like people on the outside who just look at, you know, people on the streets and go, they're dirty, they litter, they, you know, they're doing drugs, know, they're, look, they robbed that CVS store or whatever. It's like,

like try and crack below the surface of that a little bit more or a lot more to see that they're just like you. It's circumstantial what's happening. And the rebuild that's really critical if you wanna participate in that as someone looking in from the outside is to begin to see these people and speak to these people as their possibility, as their divine essence, as their golden potential, right? To rise through these things. Because it's not just critical

For them, it's critical for all of us, I think. We need to come to a new relationship around the way that we're holding this homeless situation, the people that have caught up in it, and the process of healing. And it's gonna begin with kind of leveling the playing field in terms of removing judgment, removing biases.

Hamish (30:25)
Tell me a little bit about the experiences you had on the streets, because when last we spoke, you gave some detail into places and situations and just that being caught in that wave where it's almost impossible to get out, because I think that's the scary bit. You become...

embroiled in somewhere where it just seems hopeless.

AJ Lovewins (30:49)
there was a guy that came up to me and I was, I it was like maybe like my third year of being on the streets, you know, I was shot out in and weak and, he used the word devastated, you know, he took a look at me and he just said, wow, he devastated, you know.

And that always stuck with me because I was, you know, was completely, utterly devastated by the situation of becoming homeless, you know, through my experience of being coming homeless and addicted on the streets and.

I don't think that I believe that it was possible for me to ever get out of that situation or change, know, at that point. I had no vision, you know, of a future where I would become a nonprofit founder or community, you know, activist or advocate or whatever, you know, like sober.

you know.

It's a hard life on the streets, you know, not having shelter.

No refuge from the elements, know. I felt a million miles away from this tender warmth of life. I remember one time I was just walking all night and eating out of garbage cans in these kind of nice residential neighborhood, kind of looking into the window and seeing this family having dinner together and the kids. What happened to me? How did I end up here?

And, you know, when you're on the streets, it's true, you are kind of invisible, you know, you get this feeling that people just don't care or see you, you know, people are wrapped up in their, you know, nine to five life and, you know, their whatever, you know, dramas of their lives and.

And once in a while, you know, someone steps out of the crowd, you know, and takes on this angelic quality and speaks to you and it's really powerful, you know. And I'll never forget some of those moments when that happened, you know, sort of like these guideposts, you know, that kept me going. But I don't know if that answered your question.

Hamish (33:05)
I think absolutely, I think you've painted a, you've painted a painting of despair, of, as you said, of desperation, of no hope. And...

AJ Lovewins (33:15)
Mm-hmm.

No.

Hamish (33:25)
Yeah, I mean, I cannot comprehend it. Absolutely cannot begin to. So how did you, how did you manage to get out of that? Because as you said, it's almost like going down a funnel where you've got to climb up a drain pipe that's covered in oil. How did you get out of that space?

AJ Lovewins (33:30)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah, well, I mean, first I want to just add to that, you know, there's a spectrum of experiences that people have, you know, while navigating homelessness, but despair is certainly common and prevalent. you know, I had it bad, you know, but like, I've seen so many people that have had it so much worse, you know. I mean, little kids literally out there smoking fentanyl.

you know, 13 years old, know, being trafficked, sex trafficked, know, disabled people who are just, you know, like, mentally, and people with mental health issues who are literally like just going through this revolving door at the hospitals where they take them in for, you know, six hours and then just put them back out knowing full well that these people do not have the capacity to think straight and take care of themselves.

And when I'm doing outreach work sometimes, I'll meet someone like down the alley, around the corner, behind the dumpster, and they are just, bring tears to your eyes immediately when you see them, because they are truly devastated.

This speaks to me, this drives me in this work because I am one of those people and somehow I've been able to be cleaned up and have a life again and I just believe that it's possible for everyone. There is one who has all power, that one is God, may you find him now as part of our literature in AA and 12 Step Recovery and this is.

When I talk about how I got off the streets, the things that have helped me, God is at the top of the food chain. It's my relationship with a higher power that I choose to call God, source, universe, my real sort of...

you know, like universal term is it's just love, right? It's just, connect to some power of love in this universe that seems to know me and respond to my prayers and helps me when I pause and kind of lean back into it for it gives me guidance. And so I think that's critical, you know, while you're on the streets is to try and find some relationship with something greater than yourself that loves you.

You know, and definitely, know, like, like recovery is hard work, right? It's fucking brutal, you know? It's like, this is the work of like pivoting, right? And like looking at the beast, right? Looking at the dragons, at the doors of the cave, which you fear to enter, right? Which is your self, your hero's journey, right? And so I'm a finite man. I realized that I, you know,

I'm not God. so, you know, leaning on this faith and this process of learning what that can mean for me in this lifetime is essential.

And I like, know, like I was raised Christian, you know. You know, I have an LGBT sister who's a minister. My dad, you know, went from Christian to atheist to Muslim at the end of his life. You know, I mean, I have so much diversity, you know, in my family alone, you know, so I'm not, you know, like particular about.

I don't judge. think we can learn from all faiths, Native American, Buddhist, whether you're Muslim. I think love is really the medicine in all of those religions and ways that we want to look at higher powers or something greater.

Hamish (37:43)
I think that is really important because love brings in forgiveness. It brings in new chances, new opportunities. with that capacity to forgive yourself and learn to love yourself, you you're letting go of all that stuff. You're letting go of the past and the concept of a higher power.

AJ Lovewins (38:00)
Mm-hmm.

Hamish (38:07)
I think is really important. didn't appreciate it in AA because it wasn't my time. But I found my own sense of spirituality and it's not, please help me, I can't do anything. It's just an understanding that you're not alone. There is something looking out for you and being able to pause as you said. And you get a sense of ideas and hope and there is hope because...

There is. You just have to listen for it, look out for it.

So how did you manage to cope with that transition to rebuilding your life and start basically living a lifestyle as a coping human being, as a thriving human being maybe?

AJ Lovewins (39:00)
Yeah, that's a great question. This is what I'm hoping to explore and share in this whole TV series that we're doing, Our People Rise. Over the 10, 15 years, from the time I sort of realized I have to change, right? I'm gonna die.

in the streets like a dog if I don't change to you know sort of like where I would say I kind of got to a baseline you know that took a good 10-15 years right but it started with

you know, like acceptance or surrender, know, which, which, you know, we talk about, you know, in recovery, which is like, you know, it's like we're sick and tired of being sick and tired, right? And we have to admit to our innermost selves, you know, that we were addicts or that we, or that it's not working, you know, or that I'm, I'm licked, I'm not going to be able to do this my own way, do life the way I'm doing it, right?

And so that's like an inflection point that's critical, I think, it was for me and it is for everybody. It's like, we don't change until we realize that we have to or need to and we're going to. But moving forward, I already mentioned like,

establishing some kind of higher power, relationship with a higher power was critical, you know, and was like for me, it was like, God help me, you know what I mean? I did throw up my arms and screamed to the heavens, you know. But I found a 12 step recovery, you know, early on and...

that gave me an opportunity to, you know, get in the middle of the pack, I guess, is, you know, a way to say it that's that's set in the circles of AA, you know, 12 step. And that's just like, you know, I can't do it alone, right? I'm not going to make this journey ahead, you know, without a band of brothers around me or, you know, a community. so and so that was critical.

know, recovery and personal growth practices, you know, saved my life. You know, I was very fortunate to have a friend living in Northern California that I reconnected with shortly after I got off the streets and sort of got into recovery. And he was involved in, you know, the Human Potential Movement. It's very popular in Northern California. There's a lot of gurus and teachers and...

And he started to feed me these little golden nuggets of teachings. Started with sort of giving me this template for the hero's journey and helping me to kind of understand Joseph Campbell's model of how our hero goes in on this journey. then he was forced to go into the cave and pass the dragons and come out with the medicine.

this initiation separation or separation initiation and return model kind of. And beyond that, you I got involved with Landmark Education, which was a wonderful experience. And they really helped me to see through my limiting beliefs that I was holding onto that were keeping me back from growth.

They've got a great diagram, you know, that is, you know, it's like a pie and it says, you know, this is everything you know, it's a very small piece of the pie next to that small piece. This is everything that you know that you don't know in life, you know, and then there's the massive like 88 % of the pie, which is what you don't know that you don't even know. Right. And that was an aha moment for me and landmark when I was like, crap, I don't know shit. But I'm living my life as though I do and that's creating problems. Right.

because my future is full of limitations when it should actually be empty, right?

and clear for creating new possibilities for myself and the limitations that are existing when I look into my future from my past experiences. So I had to, you know, get help. Landmark helped me to go back and understand that, you know, a lot of these blockers that I was dealing with were just made up of stories about events that happened in my life that I made up at the time with the limited toolkit that I had, right?

had a traumatic experience. I made up a story that was unlovable because that's what I had in my toolkit. I was kicked out by my father. I made up a story he didn't love me, carried that through. And all of these stories that I made up became drivers inside me, driving my thinking, driving my behavior, driving my fears. So...

you know, back to 12 step recovery, know, some of the stuff in the four step inventory have helped me to understand my fears and get in touch with those. And, you know, the list goes on and on. My point is, that,

is that I was lucky, I was fortunate to get exposed to some really powerful technologies for transforming one's life, right? Where I think, and I was open and willing to engage with them, right? But that friendship was foundational and instrumental in the early days. so I think everybody needs a friend who's got like a toolkit of

really potent medicine to share, you know, and to walk with that person during those formative years when they're just coming off the streets, they're just coming out of addiction. And A, we call it sponsor, know, landmark, it's a course leader, you know, and the hero's journey, you know, it's the teacher or whatever that comes in. And so, yeah, know, higher power of some kind, relationship with that, beginning to cultivate a community and getting in the middle of the pack.

finding a great teacher, know, these have all been things that have really served me well. And I'll say, I'll just add this and I'll shut up for a second. But another thing that I was very lucky and fortunate to get involved with at an early point in.

after getting off the streets and I was traumatized, I had mental health issues, was, you know, like anxiety, PTSD. Somehow I wandered into a soup kitchen and asked for a volunteer job. And they let me, you know, stack chairs and tables and wash dishes.

But I had such a sense of purpose, know, and such a, like, service is such a powerful medicine that if you can get into service, I believe, as early as possible in your recovery journey from whatever it is, it's just, you get back so much more than you give,

Hamish (46:07)
It is service in any way. that's, as you said, that helps you feel I've done something, I've made a difference for somebody. And that building of a little bit of self-esteem, a little bit of self-respect, it is so powerful. Yeah, and little by little, you start trusting yourself and people give you a bit more responsibility and

AJ Lovewins (46:21)
Mm-hmm.

Hamish (46:30)
It's, yeah, but you've, you've had to surrender. You've had to say, I can't do this. You had to put your hand up and say, I need help. That is the scary bit, isn't it? That is probably one of the hardest things to do until you've done it. And then that's the easiest bit. It's the journey in recovery is.

AJ Lovewins (46:40)
Mm-hmm.

Hamish (46:54)
Is a yo-yo is up and down is scary is frightening and things like that.

AJ Lovewins (46:57)
I think I love that. I think that what comes up for me is like.

this sense that I would be devastated or not devastated but destroyed, you know what I mean? In some way, like my arms and legs would literally fall from my body and I would be a pile of nothing on the floor if I got vulnerable, got honest and let people see what was actually going on inside of me. was like I had such a story that to sort of turn myself inside out in a group setting or with a therapist or even with myself in the mirror meant annihilation.

But I think that...

You know this capacity to continue to do that to throw ourselves over the lines that we've drawn in the sand Where we've said I won't do that. I can't do that You know what mean in the direction of failing forward towards personal growth, know, like that spirit, you know is so it's such a great tool, you know, it's a very simple blunt tool But sometimes you just have to grab yourself by the seat of your pants on the top of your shirt. Just say no You know, you're going in to this neck

iteration of yourself and that is going to be a type of annihilation and you have to embrace that you know because sometimes it's in that busting ourselves apart that we get the opportunity to put ourselves back together stronger.

Hamish (48:21)
And that completely reminds me of the Shamanic Bone Dance that we do. It's a journey of nothing more complicated than allowing your body to break apart, to dissolve, to wash away, to break up everything, all that annihilation, all that is gone, all the old stuff, wash it all away and then get rebuilt. And it's a really powerful shamanic journey.

AJ Lovewins (48:25)
Mmm.

Hamish (48:45)
I love doing it, it's tremendously healing. you're daring to be vulnerable. would hazard a guess, nobody has died from vulnerability, from going, I can't do this anymore and saying I need help and stepping forwards.

AJ Lovewins (48:46)
I'd like to do that.

Mm.

25 years later after that experience on the streets in San Francisco, where I was completely devastated that I am still dealing with trauma today. still dealing, I'm still in packing wounds. I am still, and I thought for sure by now I would have been on easy street, just this gleaming example of transformation. But it's like, what got me from there to here isn't gonna get me from here to there.

and there's further to go. The mountain range continues in this lifetime. And I'm working on vulnerability issues today too. I'm working on issues around men right now and realizing that some of the wounds I experienced in my childhood with my father are still present and with other men in my life.

I experienced sexual assault when I was homeless on the streets, and I haven't really unpacked that. I've done a lot of therapy, but there's more to go. And I think what happens is, I have a very old habit.

that exists today of like tidying up my room like I did before this interview. You know, just sweeping the clothes under the bed, just pulling it down just enough so that you can't see the edges, you know, because I'm a busy guy, right? I gotta make money, you know, I'm, you know.

shaking and moving, trying to have a successful life, but you know, that habit has to constantly be checked. You know, and one of my new prayers is, know, God help me check myself, you know, check, just check me God, you know, I mean, because, you know, before I wreck myself, you know, because it's really easy in this world of distractions to just

you know, as much work as we do and as hard as we work, you know, there's no credits, you know, it's like, it's like each day is really truly a new day, you know, with a new responsibility to, to, you know, do all of the things that you have to do to maintain your internal household and your mind. and, and, know, all of these great lessons and teachings can just fly out the freaking door in any second. I can be right back there with a needle in my arm, you know, if I don't be careful, that's just the truth,

Hamish (51:17)
That's the scary bit, isn't it? we as addicts, ex addicts know that drugs work. We know that alcohol works. We know it will just take that edge away. We also know it is very fucking hard to get back from that state. And that's the scary bit. It's very easy to tumble back down to being in that area where I can't cope anymore. I know what will help.

AJ Lovewins (51:25)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

it's like, what do do when you just like stop giving a shit? You know what mean? Like whatever happens in your life occurs and what you're left with is like, I don't care anymore. Because if you get to I don't care anymore, none of your tools and teachings are gonna fricking matter. Because you're not gonna give a fuck to you're not gonna want to use them. So that's a very dangerous place for me.

to arrive at, I have to be very careful that I don't get there and keep people in my life and kids in my life that I love and my family and all of these things. Purpose is really important, I feel, to stay on track and keep doing the right thing, something to believe in, in this big crazy world, because there's a lot of chaos going on.

And I like to help people find their purpose. I feel like the experiences that I've gone through in this last two years of, like I lost my job at the end of COVID and I really had to do some soul searching and figure out what I wanted to do to move forward and the dots connected. I think that that...

you know, for me, I caught on fire, you know, in that moment for this TV series and this new nonprofit, Art People Rise. you know, it was all like percolating, you know, over the last 10 years, you know, while I was doing a lot of work in Silicon Valley and just kind of feeling like I'm not in my purpose, you know, like I was trying to be, you know, making an impact. I was learning a lot about innovation and these really important things that I'm using now.

for developing this new company and this new nonprofit.

When you connect, when the dots connect, and dots for me are like, what is the one thing that you have to do, that you would have to do if, in your life, if you only have a year left to live, you know what I mean? Like what would be the most important thing for you?

And for me, it was like making a contribution to society, paying it forward, giving it back with everything, 100%, full core press, standing next to my higher power side, just saying, let me run the ball, throw me a pass, scoring touchdowns for humanity, right? And then I think the second thing was like really getting an understanding of what my skill sets are and what I love to do, right?

And then I think the third was, you know, just.

just looking at my resources and what I had around me that I could pull together to make it happen. But when the dots connect for people, I just think that there's this ignition that happens. It's like something comes alive and something takes the wheel and it can't be stopped. It is an invigorating infectious, it is an invigorating.

energy that has so much power, can just blow through walls,

Hamish (54:51)
tell me about your inspiration for Our People Rise, what your vision is, what your dream is and tell me how it's actually coming together.

AJ Lovewins (55:04)
So, Our People Rise is a concept for a TV series that we are making. It's stories of human resilience. We're asking the question, what is it in our human DNA that allows us to rise up in the face of hardship, struggles like homelessness, addiction, and mental health?

I'm the host and traveling across the country interviewing Americans and asking them these questions. The inspiration for this was my desire to create a series that I could take into prisons and shelters, treatment centers.

hospitals, colleges, and speak with panels of people who have managed to get to the other side of the minefield in these sort of pillar issues and have desire that together we can share the tools that we use to help us get there,

with people who are really needing the inspiration to believe and to hear these tools and have some access to them. so that's really it. Like, look, planning to like air on Netflix or Hulu or Amazon or whatever, great, love it. But that's the foundation of the project is it's a service project with the intention of like.

taking these messages to the hardest hit places in the country and providing inspiration and hope for people. And then aside from the series is the nonprofit, Our People Rise, and that will be sort of the legacy foundation that is focused on teaching core tools for transformation to impacted communities in the area of homelessness, mental health, and addiction. And these tools, I mentioned a few, but you know.

It'll be an ongoing combined effort of a core mastermind and a community and an alliance of organizations that are all working together to really understand what the blockers and pain points are for people who are just beginning to rise up from these devastating situations so that we can solve for those problems with the latest and greatest technology that's out there.

being developed by some of greatest minds on the planet to really help people hack their minds, get into the mechanics of what change looks like and be able to get more traction so that we see these success rates in these programs across the country going up. And so my personal perspective is and experience is that...

If we look at the adventurer, like a diagram, and the adventurer is going on this adventure across the mountain range, right?

Like what is the walking stick? What are the binoculars? What are the tools that the adventurer has that are gonna help them to navigate the terrain ahead, right? Because even as we offer these programs like 12-step recovery or healing from trauma or housing programs, addiction programs, that the governments are laying out for people.

I feel like if you don't have the toolkit to navigate through those programs and those offerings, you're gonna get turned around and you're gonna go back out to what you know and potentially use or die, right? And because I was given some of these tools from my friend and from some of these programs early on, I was better able to navigate through some of these.

programs and you know from someone who is seriously sick and able to be successful and so the goal of the series is just to arm people with better tool kits to succeed along this you know very difficult and challenging journey of recovery from you know from these things and I'm extremely passionate about you know just the outliers you know the people that you know society has given up on.

and going after that demographic and loving them like my foster parents loved me and really delivering them the quality of education and information that they deserve. The days of going into a hospital after overdosing and some social worker handing you three pieces of...

wrinkled paper that are stapled together and saying good luck, call these numbers and nobody answering or need to be over, you know. It's not acceptable, you know. When I see people on the streets, I see future nonprofit leaders, I see, you know, future teachers, know, parents, you know, taking the head of their families again, you know, resuming their.

Hamish (1:00:17)
I've got goosebumps. think You're empowering people. As you said, that piece of paper is giving them a fish. You're teaching them to fish. You're giving people hope and opportunity and that can only come from everything that you have done. As you were talking then, I was joining the dots. AJ experienced

all sorts of stuff growing up, went into Hollywood, he can write a script, he knows how to make a movie, he knows how to tell a story. You then tumbled back down again to learn a bit more. You've done all the technology, so you know all of this. Everything you have been through in your life has said, right, now you have all the tools you need to do exactly what your vision and your purpose is. And I think that...

That's what makes this so special. That's your guarantee this is gonna work because you've lived every single bit of it. You've got all the tools you need to make this.

It's empowering people and it's bringing hope and that is magical. Really, really magical.

AJ Lovewins (1:01:21)
Thank you. I feel like we are doing it. You're a part of my journey. I'm a part of yours in this moment. I think that there are a lot of people, kids, young people, older people who really want to see change on this planet. And I think that we...

have more tools at our disposal today through information sharing channels to educate each other. And I do see trends of, you know, young people, especially who are leaning into, you know, I don't know, higher consciousness or just, you know, wellness, you know, education. And I think that's really inspiring to me.

Hamish (1:02:10)
AJ, I know what you're doing is absolutely wonderful and I'm gonna support you the best I can. Where can all my listeners find out more about Our People Rise, your story and what you're doing?

AJ Lovewins (1:02:22)
Yeah, ourpeoplerise.com. You know, we are expressly interested in working with anybody who really cares about the homeless situation, mental health and addiction in America and abroad. And yeah, I would love to talk to anyone who wants to support that

Hamish (1:02:39)
And then one last question. What is your superpower?

AJ Lovewins (1:02:44)
You asked me this last time, my superpower, think I'm gonna say God. know, just like the willingness to like pray and listen and then try and act on that guidance is really, you know, I think the greatest superpower that I've been humbled and

you know, a God of my own understanding, which, which, you know, is loving and more spiritual than religious for sure.

Hamish (1:03:15)
Brilliant.

AJ Lovewins (1:03:16)
and exists in all of us.

Hamish (1:03:20)
that's the important bit.

Is she ringing you?

AJ Lovewins (1:03:23)
That's, that's God calling. I'm to take this. No, I'm late for a meeting, but I thank you so much. I love you, brother.

Hamish (1:03:24)
It's God calling. Cool.

I love you too. Thank you ever so much for being on the show, taking the time and all the best. will stay in touch.