The Crucible:Conversations for the Curious

Hamish Niven (00:01)
Welcome to The Crucible, Conversations for the Curious. I am Hamish, your host. This podcast is for anyone going through awakenings, trying to make sense of life. Whether dark nights are the soul, needing to make life -changing decisions, struggling with addiction or critical illness, or simply realizing that their life as they know it is not aligned to values and purpose. You are not alone. You can get through this, promise you. Life is far more beautiful on the other side.

Hamish (00:29)
Hello everybody today we are chatting with Dan Dan and I met on a social media network not so very long ago and we got chatting and We realized we had quite a lot in common and so I asked him to get on to the podcast because he has a remarkable story and His exuberance is infectious and just how he shows up for life for himself and for other people is really precious So Dan, thank you for being on the show today. Thank you so much

Dan Hungerford (00:56)
It's great to be with you. I appreciate the opportunity to talk about my story and to spread hope and spread positivity. That's what I'm about now. I spent a lot of time in my life doing the opposite of that. And so I'm glad to be here. I'm glad for the opportunity.

Hamish (01:11)
Lovely. Well, the space is yours. Please tell us a little bit about your story and who you are now and where you came from.

Dan Hungerford (01:12)
to

Okay, absolutely. So as we both know, and as a lot of people in our situations know, looking back is so much easier to see the way things worked out or should have probably worked out or where the roadblocks or the potholes were. So I have to kind of go back to the beginning of my story. Sometimes mine's a little unusual because of the where I ended up. And you'll see that coming up. Most people figure I had a rough, rough go of it early on in life and I didn't.

I had a very much what most people consider perfect existence up till my mid -20s. But that came with its issues too. A little bit of background on me, born and raised in Michigan here in the US. Father, entrepreneur, grandpa entrepreneur, highly driven man. My dad was married before and so I'm the second family. My sister and me, he married my mom.

after being married before. And so there's a little bit of a dynamic there. We'll talk about in a minute, but there's some unhealthy coping and stuff that I learned that way. But my dad was always busy. My family was always busy. I always laugh with people that we left when it was dark and we came home and it was dark. And anybody who has owned a company, it was exactly what I'm talking about. Right. That's the price we pay for what we do. so didn't get a lot of, I didn't get a lot of time with my dad. I didn't get a lot of

good feedback from my dad. My dad was older and he'd done this before, five kids before me. I was the sixth one to seven. And so he was kind of done with it and he was busy and his priority was the company. Now, what I did get from my dad was this sense of perfection. That everything always had to be perfect, right? We were a very respected family, church, business community.

And so was unspoken in our family that we better not embarrass the family. And then I had a father that also never admitted the failure. And so I know now looking back that he had plenty of them, but never in my life growing up through my teenagers, I think my dad ever failed at anything. And, wow, that's a lot of pressure on a kid. When you think that that's the standard of life, that is a lot of pressure.

As much as my mom was such a sweetie and encouraging, maybe overly so, it just never, it always stuck with me in my head. You're not good enough. You're not doing enough. You can't, you're not working hard enough. You're lazy. You know, I tell a story about my dad. It just kind of sums him up. He used to say to me, my dad owns a string of lumber yards. It's why I used to work, since 10 years old, I worked in lumber yards, right? I would, would sell customers. I would sweep the warehouses and stuff and.

And my dad had me out sweeping the warehouse one time and he came out and he was angry and he said to me, man, how do you not know how to sweep? You don't know how to sweep? And I thought to myself, no, I don't. Nobody's ever showed me, you know? And so, and then the other thing that is, it'll make sense down the line that is my dad is he never took breaks. Okay. So when my dad said, just take a break, he meant we stopped this job and do another job. He didn't mean we actually sit down and take a break. Right. And so this is how my mind has been taught.

you know, from birth until, I mean, honestly, I got, I'm still working through this, but only two or three years of actually being able to understand that that's not the way you're really supposed to live. So anyway, so I, you know, I grew up with this, with this pressure, with this identity that everything had to go just right. And fortunately for me, things did, you know, I mean, I was a pretty good student. I was a star athlete.

I married the prettiest girl right out of college. I have a psychology degree. Maybe there's some backs right at that, but I was going to try to help people. That was my goal. But I got out and I the bug event. Entrepreneurship got me. And so I started in my first company right out of college. I did very, very well, which reinforced.

fact that I believed life was going to be easy. You know, here I had done this thing. I was perfect and I wasn't perfect. I felt like I had to be, but I wasn't. I knew I wasn't, so I covered it real well. as success is built, it was like, man, what are people talking about? Life's so hard. This is a piece of cake, you know? And so I'm getting to 25, 26 years old. I'm making good money. You can't tell me anything because I'm at that stubborn part of life where I don't take advice because, well, what do you know? Look at me.

Right? And so the ego was getting bigger and bigger. The head was getting bigger and bigger. And that was the beginning of the doubtful. Right? And so I had, I was married for about six years. And then it kind of fell apart and ended up getting divorced at 28 years old. And so this is the start of the crack in the armor. That's what I like to call it. Right? Now I couldn't hide that I wasn't perfect anymore. And everybody knew.

that I was a failure, that I had my marriage had not done it, right? That's way I viewed it, you know? And so what do I do with that? Right? Now what is my identity? You know, I had an identity through school. was a conference kid. I was an athlete. I was married. You know, I was a good husband. Now I'm all alone at 28 years old. I am wondering what, what, what am I now? What is my identity now? Where do I go from here?

And now everybody knows that Dan Hungerford is not what he appeared to be. And for the first time in my life, I had to face a crisis. And I didn't know how to do that. And so I had a choice. They always say you meet the devil at the crossroads, and you decide which way you're going to go. And so I was lonely, and I decided that these people that I knew from actually some of them that worked for me at that point,

They're going out every Friday night and every Saturday night and Thursday night sometimes. Whatever night was convenient at that point. And so I was like, you know, I never done this before. was I was raised in a very religious family. My mom, dad didn't drink. We went to church three times a week, you know, those kind of things. And so I had no idea, you know, what life that was. OK, now it's time. And so being the knucklehead that I was at 28 and having the head this large because I figured I knew exactly how life worked.

I headed down that path with partying, right? You I was making insane amounts of money and had no brains at that point, really, looking back. And so, and so I started down that road. You know, first, I remember the first time I ever went to a bar and they said, what do you want? I had no idea. Like I literally didn't know, I did not know one brand of alcohol. This is where I started, right? And I said to them, I'll have a Scotch on the rocks because I'd seen it in the movie.

And so it was like, that's how I started, right? Because I had literally no idea how to, and it wasn't very good, as you can probably imagine. For your first drink, probably scratch on the rocks, it's not where you want to go. But I didn't know, I didn't know any better. And so, so anyways, I started down this, this, this road, you know, of thinking I'm having a good time, right? Thinking that I'm just making friends and, and, and my identity became Dan's the party guy, right? He's got the money. He doesn't have to go home because he can always pay.

Hamish (08:50)
you

Dan Hungerford (09:02)
And he can do this and he can do that. And so, you know, it started out as fun. It started out as as I'm just having a good time. And for a couple of years, it went that way. But then it started to cost me. You know, I was missing appointments for work. I wasn't I was sleeping past when I should have gotten up. Then then there became some drug use as well. You know, as you start partying.

Next thing you know, it's like somebody says to you, hey, have you ever tried this? And I was one of those guys that go, yeah, no, first time for everything, right? And so there was that and there was a string of women and it was over and over and over. And for the first two or three years, like I said, wasn't, I thought I was really living the life. I thought I was living the life that every man dreamed of, right? But I started to wake up a lot of mornings sad and ashamed of myself and alone and sick.

and wondering where this path would go, but not at this point being willing, being able to change it. You know, it had already gotten, mean, we're first year or two, maybe I could have, could have turned it around, but by the time it actually dawned on me where I was at four or five years in, it had me, it had its hooks in me. You know, it had become what my, what my identity was. And I didn't know how to have fun anymore or go out without alcohol.

or without drugs, I had lost my ability to deal with life. So when things, if I had to have a hard conversation with one of my friends or with one of my employees, I had to go down and have a shot. I had the hard conversation because I had lost my ability. And so by that time, I had about a 15 year period and about a third of the way through is when it really started to, it was fun until it wasn't funny.

Right. And so, then I started getting a string of, cause I was very irresponsible and I would drive my car, you know, it was, unacceptable. Luckily, thank God I never hurt anybody, but I almost killed myself once. I ran into a telephone pole and it missed my head by about that much and I should be dead. You know, during that time I also,

Maybe here in Michigan, we have some pretty epic snowstorms and some cold, right? And one time I was trying to walk home, be responsible, and I fell asleep in the snow drift. And if somebody wouldn't have found me, I'd have froze to death, you know? And so it's amazing to look back and think about how I was protected, even though I didn't know I needed to be. I thought I was just out there living my life the way everybody, you you get to the point and maybe some of y 'all can relate with this, but you get to the point where you feel like that everybody lives like this.

Because everybody you know does. Right. And so like, why would you stop? mean, this is how people live. And then you get out and you realize, like, wait a minute, there's another way, you know, but how do I get there? How do I get there? Right. So over the next, you know, few years, life continued that way. Trouble with finances and in legal trouble. I in 2009.

I got another DUI here in Michigan that put me in jail for nine months. You'd think at that point you would learn, but it was deeper than that. Right? mean, anybody who's ever been addicted, you know, people used to say to me, well, because I have to, didn't mention I have two, boys, right? Two boys. one of them is going to be 18 and one of them is 10. he was to say to me, well, why don't you think about your kids? Why don't you, what won't that help? And they don't understand the brain that goes with.

Addiction right all that did was make me feel worse. want me to drink more because now I feel shame And they were trying to help they were trying to help but it does it's not the way it works, you know, and so So I kept going and you think it like I said in 2009 went to went to jail for nine months Got back out stayed sober for about 15 months Then one day I can remember as clean as clear as day. I was working in an office downtown running a company for somebody who

who thought it was a good idea to let me run their company. But I was always really good at certain things, but messed up in other ways. And I thought to myself, okay, today's the day I'm going to walk down to this bar that I know, this Irish pub. And I happened to walk in the door. And of course I knew the bartender because I knew almost everybody at certain point. I, I can remember sitting there in that drink and I can remember how it felt for my brain. And I thought, I'm in trouble. I'm in trouble.

Hamish (13:47)
you

Dan Hungerford (13:50)
But my whole time in that 15 months or in that 15 years, the thing was is I thought I'd be able to figure it out. You know how many books I read about moderation and hypnotherapy, right? Because I didn't want to give it up. I didn't want to give it up. was my, it was, mean, people say, and this is kind of true, it was my best friend at that point. It was like losing your best friend. That was my comfort. was my, you know, it what I knew and

Hamish (14:07)
Yeah.

Dan Hungerford (14:18)
And I didn't want to give it up. just wanted to lessen it. I wanted to lessen the bad effects and lessen the life consequences that I was facing. And so I did. I read and read and and figured that someday I'd figure it out, right? That I'd be able to have everything that included and not ruin my life. And so as you can imagine, why I'm here is it didn't work out that way.

I continued down that road, two more DUIs. and then finally, in 2016, a judge threw the book at me, right? He said to me in court, Mr. Hungerford, we can't let you kill somebody and you're not learning. And he sentenced me to prison and it was like, man.

This got real. And and that during that first like 30 days after that is when I kind of realized I would never go back. And I'll share with you the couple of things that I when I kind of knew people asked me when was the turning point. So I got sentenced and I went back to the county jail waiting for to go to prison for a week. And that night I got on a on a call

Hamish (15:13)
.

Dan Hungerford (15:42)
my son video call and he was 10 years old.

And I saw the pain in him.

things he didn't do?

He was paying a price that he didn't deserve to pay. That's his dad.

his dad couldn't hold it together. And I said to myself in that moment, that night,

You can't put him through that anymore. That's not fair to him. You gotta figure this out.

And so I started that journey. know, went to prison. The second kind of light bulb moment, if you will, is I was sitting in Jackson prison in Jackson, Michigan. It's one of the biggest walled prisons in the United States, in a cell by myself. Now, my ex -wife, her dad, when I was dating her and married to her, worked in Jackson prison. And so I sat there.

in my cell overlooking the yard thinking, wow, how have you fallen? Right? What would they think? Here you are, you you were the least likely to be here. And yet here you sit, right? You used to watch your father -in -law get dressed in his uniform and come here. Who would have ever thought that someday you'd be sitting here? Never me. When I took that first

Draco Scotch, I would have never guessed that I would be sitting there someday, right? And talking about eye -opening and humbling, which is what I needed. You know, like, okay, you're seeing what you're doing to your child and then not other members of the family too, but really what you're doing to your son. And then look at what your choices have gotten you. Like you're sitting, looking through the bars,

in the stinky, dirty, know, rust colored water coming out of the sink cell. What is wrong with you? And so it was really it was one of those moments. And during that 30 days and then finally about seven days after I went to prison, my dad died. And so I never got to say goodbye to him. And in all of this, because of my own choice, my own decision.

Right. And so it was. It was heartbreaking. It was eye opening, but it was also what I needed. It was what I needed. I needed somebody to take the proverbial hammer and smack me in the head and say, you can. This is not this is not what you're meant to be. You can do better than this. And so how are you going to do that? And so I spent two years locked up, waiting for my family.

It was looking back, it was probably the two best years that could have been given to me. People always act weird when I say that, but how many people get a chance right in the middle of their life? I'm going to be 50 years old in November, right? This was middle of my forties. How many people get a chance to take two years, get away, figure it out, wipe the slate clean and start over?

I mean, I was given that opportunity and it was, it was the thing that made the difference. You know, I, I was sent way up, way up nine hours away from my family. And I spent my days when I first got there, walking around this dirt track, quarter mile dirt track, angry and crying and thinking and trying to figure out what, what the purpose, why did I get here?

You know, what is, what is the deal? You know, and it came to a lot of things. Like I had a lot of unforgiveness, right? We all know what that does to it. It hurt the other person. hurts you. Right? You hold onto that stuff, right? And it just eats at you. And I had a lot of things that I was, you whether it was my family, my dad, lot of things that unforgiveness towards myself, mean, you know, like what have I allowed myself to become? And, and then.

you know, sometimes unforgiveness towards the people that helped me down that road. I don't blame them. Right. I mean, they were in the same position as I was, but I chose to surround myself with them. But it also contributed. They contributed. And, you know, and these are people that. Considered me their friend. And now you look back and you think, well, friends, friends allow that in friends. Well, they do if they're all in the same boat.

You know, so like I said, it's not a it's not a judgment towards them. It's just a reality. But I had to let some of that go, you know, and I did over two years time. You know, I spent a lot of time reading and and and healing and forgiving and deciding, OK, what what is the next steps going to be? How are you going to make the stick? I mean, the judge said to you, he's going to send you to two years away, but to dry out. OK, this is your chance, because if you go back

probably never gonna get back again, right? You're gonna end up dead, or next time you are gonna kill somebody, and this is gonna be your home for the rest of your life. And those are your choices, Dan, those are your choices. And so I did my time, and I got out, and I started to work towards building my life back. know, I was fortunate that I have a lot of education, I was a lot...

a lot of do a lot of things. And, but my biggest thing was, is not so much even the companies I've started a couple of companies since then it was, how are you going to help?

other people. They had the opportunity while in prison because I trained leadership for years and years and years. And so I tried to help as many people as I could. guys that have big aspirations sitting in prison, that's what you have to have. You have to have these dreams because the daily life will suck it right out of you. When we talk about, we sit down and we put business plans together and we talk about leadership structure and how can you spread a vision and all these things, but that wasn't quite good enough anymore.

Like I had to be able to impend.

in a way that I wish people would have impacted. Right. I mean, like I said earlier, a lot of it was just pure naive thinking. Right. How do you end up taking a drink of scotch and then ending up in prison? Well, it happens, right? If you make enough bad choices, little by little, happens. And so how am I going to actually not make up for what I did? You can't do that. Right.

But leave a legacy. You know, I helped a lot of people destroy their lives too. You know, I was, when I was in my partying days, you know, there's a lot of people that over drank and over drugs because of me. Right. I shoved it. Now. Yes. People say, well, that's your choice. Yeah, it is. But I didn't help them either. Right. I was, I was, I was the catalyst there, you know, and so

Hamish (22:41)
Hmm.

Dan Hungerford (23:06)
It was very important to me to figure out how am I going to lead people better than I found them rather than worse. For 15 years, people that knew me were worse off for having known me. And I couldn't live with that anymore. And so, so I set out on this, this, you know, path and what really ended up coming up, it was a now I'm in my sixth year of teaching youth. Right. I took a lot of the

Hamish (23:31)
Mm -hmm.

Dan Hungerford (23:33)
I'm a John Maxwell trainer and so he's one of the top leadership people in the whole world. He has books on growth and personal development and all that stuff. And so I took that, all that knowledge that I had, and I made it into a high school, middle school curriculum. If you read his books, it's all for old vice presidents, right? But the principles are sound, they're not gonna relate to young people. And so I spent the time and I built out this program. And the reason I...

do it is because I want, I used to sit in those desks too, right? I was a Christian school kid. Some of these people are private school kids, right? Christian school kids. They think, just because I do this, this will never happen to me. Nope, it does. Look at right here, right? Your choices are your choices. And so I, it was important to me, whether it be public school or private school or Christian school, that some of these principles get relayed because I wish somebody would have talked to me.

We've talked about the five people you surround yourself with, right? It is more important that people give it credit for, right? You end up being very, very similar to whatever those five people are if you spend enough time with them. And what do those influences look like? And are they taking you towards the life that you want or are they taking you away? And nobody ever said that to me. Like, hey, be careful. Nobody ever said to me,

Like I do these kids. What about your character? What do you want to be? What kind of things do you, when you look in the mirror, what kind of things do you want to see about yourself? Because this is the time to start working on those. It's hard to repair. Take it from me. You'll get it right. It's hard to repair. It's easier to build than repair. And so what do you want when you look in the mirror and you see yourself? What do you want to see? Do you want to see?

Hamish (25:14)
Hmm.

Dan Hungerford (25:29)
kindness and you want to see generosity and you want to see honesty and integrity or are you headed towards, you know, being a taker and a liar and all things that I used to be, you know, I mean, as an addict, we are takers and we are liars and we do whatever we got to do. Right. And so. So I built this whole program out and it's kind of where my heart is. I do a lot of other things as well, but it's where my heart is because I say to myself, if

If I can do something that allows for one of these, mean, it's been hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of kids now. One of these kids to say, remember that tall, goofy guy that stood up there and talked to me like, remember what he said about, you know, me protecting my, know, protecting my character or being careful of what my influences are or leading myself, how to to lead myself first. And if it gets through at all.

then I feel like it's a win. It's not only a win for them, it's a win for our planet, right? Because this is how we start, one by one, right? And I teach them, hey, know, Dan is coming to teach you, I don't expect anything from you, except for pass it along, right? Pass along what you know. I help you, you help somebody else. This is how we change the world. You we get in there and we talk about, kids talk about how they wish things were different.

You know, this next generation Z and Alpha, they are very disenfranchised with what the world looks like. And I say to them, why is that? You know, and they'll say, well, this or that, the other thing I said, no, it's because the people with the most influence are the ones that change things. And you can be that person too. You can be the one with the most influence. You just have to develop it. And this is where it starts.

Even at your age, you can make a difference. We talk about how do you lead mom and dad or how do you lead a principal and make change? And so this is my kind of my thing now. It's where my heart is. It is the way that I hopefully make a difference for some people. I've been, like I said, I've been doing it for a while. I can kind of continue to do it. There's a course that I'm building as well because I can't be everywhere at once.

that will teach some of the principles of it. Everything from how to lead yourself to protecting your character, to your influences, to your vision, how to set a vision for your life, how to find your purpose. How many people, I mean, we're different now, but we've gone through a lot of life. How long did it take to us to find our purpose?

Hamish (27:49)
.

Mm

Dan Hungerford (28:11)
long time, right? It's, it's, it's, you walk through people's lives, you walk, you talk to people and I'll make people walking around, I have no idea what they're, what they really shouldn't be doing. They're just doing whatever life takes them. And, and so all those kinds of things. And so it makes me happy. It makes me feel like that I make a difference. Now it is changing the legacy of what I was. it's making, I built, I've been able to thank God, been able to build my relationships back with my, mom and my, boys.

Hamish (28:21)
Yeah.

Dan Hungerford (28:40)
with my son's mom, I've been given another chance. like a real another chance. And I don't take that lightly. I got married last year. I never thought I'd get married again, because who would marry me at some point, right? And I wouldn't marry me. I was train wreck, right? And so I got married. And like I said, I've got my relationship with my boys back. I've got their respect back, which I didn't deserve. Luckily, kids are very resilient.

and forgiving. so I work every day. I work very hard to keep that trust and keep moving forward while being so grateful for the chance that I have. I tell my story a lot, not necessarily like this. This is awesome. I've been invited around to talk. I believe in helping others. I believe in giving back. mean, so many people helped me.

I remember when I was down, when I was getting ready to go to prison, there was a guy that worked in the court services. It was just such encouragement to me. He didn't have to be, you know, I mean, I'm a multiple time offender. He could have easily just thought, this guy, he's a waste of time, you know, but he wasn't. And so there was, there was people all along my life that did that for me. And I try to do that for people. Now there's, I guess the, the, the idea is there's always hope.

Hamish (29:47)
Hmm.

Dan Hungerford (30:07)
I know it feels like there's not because I was there. Like if you had asked me 10, 12 years ago, if I would ever be without alcohol and the person I am today.

There's no chance. There's literally no chance. And yet here I am, you know, one day at a time, one better decision at a time, you know, and, and I'm, am one of those success stories because I've seen both ends of it. threw away a really, really good life. I threw it away of my own choice. Didn't deserve another chance. Didn't should be dead. These, these three or four times that I can remember. And yet here I am.

Hamish (30:45)
Thanks.

Dan Hungerford (30:45)
And I think, I think a part of that is, the, the, opportunity to continue to, spread the word that life's not over. It feels like it is sometimes, but it's not. And, you know, I tell people a lot, you know, reach out to me if you have, if you have an issue, if you have one of those days, everybody has those days. You know, now I'm this, this October, I will be eight years sober. 20, 27th of October, right.

never would have thought, never would have thought. And people say to me all the time, like, we ever go back? How could I ever go back? My life is so amazing. And luckily my memory is good enough. You know, they always say with, with addicts that we always remember the good stuff, right? And we never remember the bad. Luckily for me, I don't remember anything good about it at this point. So, so it's not, it's not hard for me to compare and contrast because I can't remember anything that was good about it at this point. And so,

So it's been great. The only thing else that I have that has been lately is I was diagnosed with ADHD and a lot of people have that nowadays, this year actually. And so I wonder sometimes about that and where my path was because of my impulses and things like that. But I'm thankful to be knowing that that is where I'm at. I've been an entrepreneur my whole life and for people that know ADHD and entrepreneurs, just...

ideas everywhere all the time. And so I always thought there was something wrong with me, that I couldn't focus and I couldn't do this or that. And even when I drank, that was part of it was just that lack of impulse control. But decisions were made as they were made and there's no excuse. But it was interesting to see that in me as well and have the opportunity to now, you know, talk to people about that too. Like I tell people it's a superpower. If you get it in the right direction, it's a superpower.

I just built, I'm actually launching a new company in December. For anybody out there that has family that are struggling with dementia or loneliness as they age, we are going to have a solution for some of that that keeps them at home longer. All this couldn't have happened without sobriety and without understanding how my brain worked. And so, yeah, it's been great. It's been a great ride.

It's all been worth it because it's made me where I am today. I tell people a lot. If you looked at me on paper in my 20s, know, beautiful wife, successful company, all these things, you would think, boy, he's really, he's really gone downhill. But the man that I am is far better than that man. Right. So you may look on paper and think, well, yeah, he should have been this, this or this right now. But

even if I was a multimillionaire because where I was headed and things like that, I wouldn't have been a very good man. And the realizations and the way that I was humbled and the compassion and the empathy I have for people that I never had, it's weird to say, but it was worth it. You know, it was worth it. so, yeah, that's kind of my story in a nutshell, where I came from and where I'm going.

Hamish (33:44)
you

Hmm.

Dan Hungerford (34:10)
And I'm always happy to tell it.

Hamish (34:12)
Thank you. Thank you for that. was... There's so much information there. So much I want to quiz you about. So much I think is amazing. But I mean, most of all, eight years, well done. Well done from learning, okay, the hard way. Thou shalt not do it again. Some of us are bit thick -headed, aren't we? It just takes a prison sentence or a car crash or something like that. But Dan, thank you so much.

I want to start right back at that identity bit because I think that is really important. What happened to you when that identity fell apart? The beautiful wife, the beautiful husband, everything going for you. What happened when that identity that you had broke, disappeared?

Dan Hungerford (35:03)
I was lost. I was literally lost. know, like I think especially sometimes as males, we have that we are so attached to what we do or who we are. And I didn't have anything inside of me that I thought, like I said, you know, because of the way I was raised, the back of my brain always said, you're not good enough, right? You were lazy. You know, I I worked 90 hours a week and I was still lazy. And you know, and you'll never you'll never be able to do enough.

And so when you take away, OK, this is what I am. And then you combine that with. You're never going to stack up because you know you're not perfect and this is the standard. And so it just it really left me lost and it left me searching for a new one. Right, because I knew I had to have something. what what it what am I now? And unfortunately, it became I am Dan the party guy. And honestly.

Dan, the guy that paid for the drinks. that became, then every, course, as you know, everybody loves you when you're that guy, right? You're valuable, right? You're valuable until you're not. And so, yeah, that's what I became. But that identity part is so hard. And it's, for people that have gone through that, sometimes at multiple times in life, right? I mean, I went through that when I left high school and went to college. I was a...

I was a great basketball player in high school. And then I got a scholarship to play basketball in college. And of course, when I was in high school, I was the best and it wasn't even close. And then I went to, so that was my identity. Like, I mean, I was the guy that walked in with the big jacket and all the medals on it. And, you know, everybody was like, I know who that guy is, you know? And then I went to college and everybody that I played with was the same guy, right? They were the most popular, best player, you know? And it was like, okay, so now what am I? Right now I'm just, I was this, was the king of the hill and now I'm just the guy on the hill.

And so I'd gone through that and of course then I had gone to, I'm my first wife, you should brag about me, like how great a husband I was. So that was my identity. Like, okay, I have to be the husband that all of her friends think is the best husband. So that became my identity. And then I became the business owner. But when I lost all of that, I didn't have anything inside of me that was confident enough in who I was, right?

And so that's one of the things I guess I didn't really talk about that has changed so much is learning to believe in who you are, regardless of outside validation. And so now I get people that look at me so weird because I really don't need that. Because I finally found out who am I as a man, what am I about, and I become at peace with that.

If this person has this comment about me or if this person doesn't like this about me, that's okay. It's okay. But it takes a lot of work sometimes to get that inside and not have to. We live in a world that needs all that validation, right? And I did. know, mean, now we're, thank God we didn't have social media when I was an idiot because, whoa, right? I mean, can't imagine the record that there would be of my life. It's good that there's no record of my life.

Hamish (38:14)
Thank

Dan Hungerford (38:21)
in that regard because goodness, right? There's no videos. And so, but you know, we're used to that now like, I have to have this many followers, this many likes and things like that. And it feeds that identity. And so it's really, really hard to get to the point where you're like, OK, I know who I am. I mean, maybe I'm not who I always will be and I'm working towards being better, but I'm OK where I'm at and. I'm good enough.

and I'm confident enough and I'm doing the best I can. And it takes a while to accept this for me. It took a while to accept that. And that filled that, it filled that need to always be attaching my identity to something else or someone else.

Hamish (39:01)
that. I'm curious, do you think now your identity is not more under control? Do you think now that your identity is more defined with you because you're doing your purpose, doing what's important to you?

Dan Hungerford (39:16)
I think there's something to that. I think that when you find, when you find your calling, your purpose in life, something that makes you, one of my mentors used to say, there's a difference between success and significance, right? A lot of people are successful, but they're not significant. And when you find your purpose and you live that out, there becomes a sense of significance to that, that is an internal,

significance in yourself. You know, it makes you feel fulfilled in who you are. And so I think you're absolutely right on with that. If you don't know, if you don't know where you're going and you don't know why you're going there, then you tend to really just attach yourself to anything that will give you a good feeling of belonging. Right. And when you have your purpose, that is your that is your that is your path. And

Even if people want to jump off the train or jump off the path, that's okay because you are headed where you're headed. So I think, I think you're absolutely right. I think that makes a huge difference when you find, find a way to be significant in other people's lives and fulfill your purpose. That identity is strong. It's hard for people to take that from you.

Hamish (40:35)
Yeah. As you were talking and saying that, just, that's why I asked you, because it just, thought, I wonder, because I've had to do that. I was a photographer. I worked in TV. I was this, I was that. I'm now Hamish, you know, what is my identity? Well, I'm having fun. I'm doing what I love to do. I'm helping people because I've been through, like you, I've been through a pile of poo and...

You know, you and I, we both can say, you you will get through it. You can make sense of it. It's okay to mess up. Try not to do it again. You know, things like that.

I had to change and then my purpose became more important than what does she think, what does she think, what might they think, what about other people? You know, I had that, I had a vision rather than reacting to what I thought other people might want from me.

Yeah, you know, it's a shame it has to take crashing a car, going to prison for two years. But I don't know what the answer, I don't know how to, actually I do, what you do, helping children, because they can start making those decisions, So.

Dan Hungerford (41:43)
Yeah, well, you said that, I mean, you said the point that I teach a lot is about like, everybody makes mistakes. You don't get through life without it, right? And what I teach them is the guardrails of life. What you wanna do is everybody, if you put up guardrails around your life, whatever that means to you, then you bump into them and everybody gets to the end, the finish line with some bumps and some cracks, right? But what you wanna do is not go over the edge.

Like I did. Right. So if you can keep those, you can keep those mistakes from being the kind that we talk about, like, you know, the major ones. And why some people it takes that I don't know. But it's important because everybody, you know, especially for me, because the way I was raised, everybody makes mistakes and it's okay. Just try to try to try your best not to, like you said, not do them again and try to avoid the big ones. Put those, put those guards around your life so you don't, so you don't go over the edge. You just get some bumps and bruises.

Hamish (42:36)
Yeah, you learn from those bruises, don't you? You learn not to walk with your eyes closed and things like that. brilliant. Now, the ADHD thing is interesting because I'm on numerous groups and the amount of times when I sobered up, I realized I had ADHD. When I sobered up, when I stopped doing drugs. And I'm waiting for a test as well just to see because like you, my brain, you know, joining all those dots.

Dan Hungerford (42:40)
That's

Hamish (43:05)
creating those dots and I realized recently I was self -medicating. Alcohol, flipping brilliant just to take the edge off that noise. Now I have to meditate otherwise it's just...

Dan Hungerford (43:19)
I do that too, the breath work and stuff like that because yeah, it's hard to deal with it, you know.

I'm interested in the point that maybe some down the line they will come up with a study about it because I think that a lot of us are that way. We're trying to calm the noise. And when your brain, maybe your brain like mine, it goes a thousand miles an hour. And you never can stop to actually work through anything that matters.

because you're just so, mean, the only way I could do that in prison is it takes away all the distractions. There's nothing to distract yourself with. You know, so it was almost like being medicated because what are you going to do except sit there and think about your life. Right. And so, but I think I wonder sometimes it'll be easy as you go through and talk to more people, you know, how that, how that relates into, you know, like I do the meditation now too, and the breath work and, I have to have before I go to bed every night, I know those deep breaths and things like that, because even on medication that I'm on now,

It just slowed me down to 100 miles an hour instead of a thousand. And I wouldn't change it because the way we process information, it gives us an advantage sometimes. But to know that we're not broken, we're just different and it's okay. But I would be, I think that's interesting. I've been interested to see over time as you do a lot more of this, how much that comes up because I think there's a link there.

Hamish (44:44)
Yeah, I think so. Well, I will keep you informed. mean, that is what is fascinating about doing these podcasts is you, everyone's different, but there are common themes, ADHD. Obviously, we're talking about the moment, drugs and dependency. The reasons for it, the coping mechanisms, you you were the golden boy, you couldn't do anything wrong until, you you had to, you had to stop that child archetype.

and grow up and you've fought it and then you've done it.

That's the other thing I'm seeing as well. People are in that childhood archetype. They're in that survival mode and the alcohol keeps us there. And we have to adult. We have to awaken or initiate and it's very bloody scary. And you need to have a space to do it. Prison, as you said, meditating. And so I want to go back to the kids and I I love the fact that you took an adult book and brought it down to

whatever age you're sharing, how do they respond to that?

Dan Hungerford (45:49)
They respond pretty well. I am very very honest and upfront with my story with them as well I use this line a lot and they'll probably the both their eyes But I say, you know, this is not stuff that I read in a book. I lived this life Right. And so I know the cost I know how much benefit, you know Success in life no matter what you do. It leaves clues There's a recipe to it, right? And so if you follow the clues that people before you if you read books from

Biographies from successful people no matter what it is. They're successful at there's commonality like you said there's this commonality in there even though they've been went about it a different way and so I tell them listen there's commonality here and What I'm trying to do is I'm trying to save you some grief and and I try I try really hard to make it Very much related. They can relate to it right now, right? so when we talk about say goal setting

There's plenty of studies that have been done for 100 years about how goal setting and writing them down and reviewing them every day keeps you on track. And I say to them, what is different between your life and my life when I was your age? Your life is peppered with things trying to get your attention comparatively. We had cartoons for one hour after at three o 'clock and then for two hours on Saturday morning. And that was it. Go outside. We didn't have...

A thousand things, like my boys, my youngest son, he'll go to YouTube and he'll watch 40 partial videos in 10 minutes, right? Also an ADHD kid, you know. And so, but you know, so I try to really focus in on what can this do? Not what is this gonna do for you in 10 years when you get out of college, but what can you do today to start these habits, you know, that are going to benefit you down the line?

And so we talk about the different things that you can do. mean, habits, like we talked about just a little bit earlier, bad habits are hard to break, right? And my thing with them is it's so much easier to get the good ones and everybody's gonna get one here and there, but it takes time to repair that. And so the better you can think about, am I doing in my life and where is it taking me? The earlier you can do that, that doesn't mean you're not gonna fail. That doesn't mean you're not gonna have challenges.

That's part of life. That's what makes you strong and resilient and smart and wise, right? If you don't go through stuff, you don't get the wisdom that comes from that. But they take it really pretty well, most of them, you know, some of them just kind of, you know, but I hope that it's sinking into some of them. Some of them I know I've had kids that now I said this is my sixth year, I've had students come back from college and stuck me in the hall and say, listen, that stuff works. Yeah, it does. You know what I mean? Like if you use it, I can't.

Hamish (48:30)
and

Dan Hungerford (48:43)
It's not what I teach you. It's not what you know. It's what you do with what I teach you that matters. And if you do that, I'm telling you, even the little bit of stuff will make a difference. And I've seen it happen. Like I've watched seventh graders through ninth, 10th grade, and I've watched their development. And I'll stop them and I'll say, listen, wow, mean, nice work. Like you're not the same kid you were two years ago or three years ago. And I've watched them and I sneak around and watch them when they have like group activities and they see how frustrating that leadership can be trying to

heard a bunch of cats, but I see them using these skills, right? And so it makes me so proud, like, okay, yeah, yeah, you're using the skills and this is gonna benefit you. And so it's been really important to me to take that information and just make it so that they can use it today. The first thing I tell them, and all my kids would tell you, I say to them, if you wanna be a leader of men, I call it less than one week once, the first week every year, I say to them, what is the one thing you can do?

that will endear people to you and make them want to follow you. And it's find the good in them, encourage them, right? If you find the good in somebody that they can't find in themselves, I'm sure you've seen this, right? You find that in them and you encourage that, boy, talking about not only do you make a better person, you've got a friend for life. Because we got critical, I mean, everybody on the planet is critical now, right? Everybody's got an opinion about everything. So if you can be an encourager.

That's where you start. Just literally encourage people and find what's good about them. Even if they can't see it. I do a activity. They call it the Post -it Note activity. I made it up years ago. And what we do is we go around the room and we talk about what is the first good thing you think about when you see that person. Write it on a sticky note and go give it to them. So I got kids walking down the hallways with sticky notes all over them, of all the good things that people see in Because sometimes we can't see it in ourselves.

We have days when we can't find anything good about ourselves. Everybody can tell you the good things about, the bad things about themselves, but what is the good thing about you? Like everybody has good in them, right? And so, I tell them, put it in your locker. And so on the days you're feeling down about yourself, remember, this is what people see in you, right? Even if you can't see it. And so I think that those things make a difference for them and help them to, it's a perception, it's a perspective thing.

you know, just trying to get them to think about things that probably they wouldn't think about at 13, 14, 15, 16 years old if they didn't have the opportunity to contemplate it.

Hamish (51:11)
Brilliant. I love that idea of opening that door when you're fed up and you want to thumb something and it just says, Bob thinks you're awesome. It's just like, yeah, I am. That just must be magical. think that is really lovely. Yeah, really, really lovely. I want to go back to the gentleman in the courtroom who was so supportive. I think there's two things that I want to touch. This is the first one because

You said something that I find really important. Everyone deserves another chance. Why is that so important?

Dan Hungerford (51:46)
I think that it's, you know, it gives you, it gives you worth. I think at some point you, you, you, get so down on yourself because of what you've become that you don't feel worth anymore. you know, that whether you want to call it self -esteem or self -image or just, just a sense of worth that, you know, you get to a point like, okay, I did this to myself. I'm, I'm, I'm a

addict and I am I'm a terrible dad and I'm a terrible this and I'm a terrible that and for somebody to say to you You're better than this and and you can do this and you deserve another chance because you like somebody who's like I said We'll go back to the voice in my brain, right? You're you don't deserve nothing. You were given everything and you tossed it What makes you think you deserve another shot, right? You people would love to have your start

And you just, because of your ego and because of your stupidity or whatever you want to call it, you just tossed it all away. And now you want somebody to give you another chance? And so I think some people, and I think that's common with people. We have this voice in our brain that just says, yeah, this is on you, man. Nobody owes you nothing. And so to have somebody say to you, listen, you deserve another chance and you're worth it and you can, you know,

but you're gonna have to go through and pay the consequences first. And that's okay, you'll survive. I mean, I'll be really honest with you. I was scared to death, right? They put me in this little van, locked me in this little cage and I was scared to death, right? I am claustrophobic and bad, right? But I survived, right? Here I am. They locked me in a cell by myself for 30 days, only came out. I was 23 hours a day locked down. How do you make it through that? You do, right? You figure it out.

You use your mind, you your mind gets stronger and you do get a lot of things to talk about. You meditate on things you can control and you do what you can. But for somebody that had seen me multiple times, a guy in the court, you know, for him to say that to me. And of course, I'm a religious person, I'm a Christian and he was too. And he said to me, you know, the God, he

Disciplines you because he loves you and this is why he's you know, if he didn't he didn't just let you die But he didn't right. He's you know, he he is gracious to you and he's giving you this next shot and If he didn't love you, he wouldn't do that He wouldn't he wouldn't have protected you and now looking back giving you two years to reset your life you know, and so I Think comes down to a self -worth thing and that's why it's so important because it's hard to believe that you're worth anything Once you've done the things that I did

Hamish (54:34)
Yep. I think that is the most beautiful answer and it is. And you just have to accept it and go, yeah, as you said, I'm in prison, I've got to think about it. I've incarcerated myself in rehab, I've got to think about it. And hope. It gives you hope, doesn't it, when someone says, you you deserve another chance. And with that hope, you can do anything.

Dan Hungerford (55:01)
It's important because this is another thing we talk about a lot when we talk about the kids. Sometimes you have to have somebody see something in you that you can't see, right? And that is what it is. It's calling out like, hey, listen, you can do this. You're better than this. You can do this. And at that point, probably you couldn't rehab. I couldn't prison. I couldn't see that in myself. I thought my life was done, right? Here I am 45 years old, a single dude, addict, and sitting in prison. You're done, dude. This is it for you.

You know, and now I sit here today, five, six, seven years later, totally, you know, but somebody had to see it and remind me of what was in me. Cause I couldn't remember, you know, I did damage to myself. It damaged my thought of my identity to myself. It's so bad that I couldn't, I couldn't see it. And so it's super important to be able to call that out in people. Okay. You know what? You have good in you and you can do this.

Hamish (55:51)
Wonderful. Now I'm really being led to ask you this. If you can't... I'll try and get this right. You realised you had to change because of your son, is that correct?

Dan Hungerford (56:06)
That's when I knew I wasn't going to go back.

Hamish (56:09)
Okay, so you weren't necessarily ready to, let's say, save yourself, but you were ready to for somebody else.

Dan Hungerford (56:18)
I didn't think I could save myself. didn't, and even honestly, when I had that video chat with my son and I went back to my cell and I bawled because of the pain that I saw on his face, you know, and to have to tell him, dad's not coming back home for a long time, you know, for two years for an eight year old is forever, you know, and so I knew I had to stop.

I knew I could not put my son through that. I had no idea how I was gonna do that. Right? No idea. Right? was like, okay, you can't do this. So yeah, he was the catalyst of, this ends here. Right? And then it was the next step was, okay, what are you gonna do to prove to yourself that you're not gonna do that to him again?

Hamish (56:52)
Hmm.

Dan Hungerford (57:12)
What steps can you take inside of yourself? I knew I had to, even though I didn't know what the steps were gonna be, I knew I hadn't, I felt like I had no choice at that point. And so, so yeah, I mean, I had to do it for myself over time, but he was the one that reminded me that, listen, this is not okay. know, cause when you're an addict, think nobody really notices, they're not paying all that much attention. You know, I'd sneak downstairs and when they were asleep and they noticed more than you think.

And they definitely noticed when dad's gone for two years. And so it was the catalyst of, from this point on, you need to figure it out. And as I started to heal and it became more about me, like, okay, wow, what could I do if I become the man that I'm capable of becoming for me? What is that gonna teach my children? So now...

I go and talk to my boys, no one's just one just started college, one's in fifth grade. And I say to them, it's never over. Look at that. Right. You're never buried. Right. You can climb back from whatever happens to you in life, you know, and it may, it's going to be rough sometimes and hopefully you won't make the same mistakes, but it's, possible. And, and so you can always think, Hey, listen, dad did it right. Also,

Like when I had one of the things that I had an issue with when I was growing up was my mom and dad couldn't relate to me. When I started down this path, they had no idea how to help me, you know, because they had never done anything like this. Like they were, they were naive too. And to be able to say to my boys, you know, Hey, I hope that you never take a drink. I hope you don't. But if you do and you need a ride to home or to rehab, call dad. I understand. I get it. Right.

And like so and if me going through this and them watching helps them not to have to walk this path. Now, maybe they will, maybe they want to have the choice they have. But if it helps them not to walk this path because they saw dad, it was worth it, too. Right. Because I would hate to have to see what my mom and dad saw. Their son go through, I would hate to have to see that. And so, yeah, but it's what it for me eventually. But that was the catalyst was just seeing that pain for somebody that didn't deserve to be in pain.

Hamish (59:35)
Thank you, because that's quite vulnerable. That's quite hard, isn't it? To realise that, yeah. See that and go, I have one choice. I have to make it for him and then sort it out for yourself. Thank you. Tell me, Dan, where can people find out more about you and what you do, specifically for the kids and things like that? So where can we find out more about you?

Dan Hungerford (59:57)
I have a company called NextGen Leadership Lab. That's what I teach under. And so what I'm going to do is I'm going to go ahead and put up a thing for when this comes out. If you have somebody in your life, if you're adult or you have a teenager or something and you think they can benefit from a chat with me, I'm going to put up a free thing. You can fill it out and I will take some calls with people. I'm here to give back. I'm here to help.

So if you have somebody in your life that's a youth, college age, whatever, could use an ear and use some advice from somebody who's been down almost every road, you could possibly walk down. I would be happy to do that. so you can go to nextgenleaderslab .com. There'll be a thing there for podcasts. We'll put you on there and you can fill it out. Give me your email. I'll get ahold of you. We'll make some time. No charge. No charge to you.

I just want to help you. Also, if you decide you're interested in what I'm working on with the app for people with brain change, you can reach me at everfriends .ai as well. That is going to be out in December. It's important to me too. My mom is 77 and she's starting into memory loss. And so she was the catalyst for doing this to try to keep her home as long as possible without having to go into the thing.

Either one of those is great. Whatever, whatever. You can also look at looking up on danhungerford .com. for mostly for the kids. And that's my heart as I try to share that. That's my heart. If you if you have a youth or if you're a parent and you don't know what to do with your youth. Yeah, go to go there and sign up and I will get ahold of you and we will chat and we will figure out a way to to move forward for you, whether whether it is your child or yourself as a parent trying to try to navigate. mean, this generation is different. They think different.

Right there. I've learned that. I mean, it's to help me so much with my own children, because as a Gen Xer, they don't think like I think, you know, their values are different. The way they relate is different. And so I know as parents, it's hard. I mean, I see parents all the time to say to me, like, how do you get through to my kid? Well, it's really not easy. You have to you have to understand. You have to understand. And and so maybe down the line, there's there's a parenting book in there, too, because I a lot of time with youth. But right now, I'd be happy to do that. I will put that up.

especially for people that watch you. And then we'll get a hold of it. start making some difference for some more people.

Hamish (1:02:30)
Brilliant, well I'll get the information from you and I'll put it in the show notes, so thank you for that. And lastly, what is your superpower that you got from changing your life around?

Dan Hungerford (1:02:43)
My superpower is...

resilience and it is an undying drive to make sure nobody has to do what I did. I can, right. I am so, so driven because I felt that pain and I felt that shame and that disappointment. And, and so it has allowed me to be

to be filled with empathy. I was a guy who before my awakening was judgmental and like, just pick yourself up from your bootstraps. You know what I mean? Like get your crap together. And then I realized that it's easier said than done. And so it's given me a resilience and a desire to change what can be changed.

to help where it can be helped. Even if it's one person here or one person there, to that one person, that's everything. To that guy that talked to me in court that day, that was everything to me. It was to the people that have helped me. There's never a small impact. People think, that doesn't matter. This doesn't matter. But there's never a small impact. And so this resilience to keep pushing forward and knowing that

People can do this. They can change. They can have the life that they, it's not too late. It's not too late, right? I was in my mid forties, right? I don't care if you're 50 or 70 or 80, it's not too late to take the steps that you need to do to change. And so I take the hits and I keep on going and to prove that this is the way it can be done. And it's given me a great platform to do.

you know, with the youth and with other things, I have a great platform to do it. And I love the fact that I can come in and share like, hey, listen, if you can take it every day, you can be consistent and you can have that resilience. The path is there. The success, like we talked about, success leaves clues. And that's part of what I share with people that reach out to me regularly, like, hey, I've seen your change and what can I do that I'm stuck in gambling or I'm stuck in porn or I'm stuck in, you know, drugs or alcohol, whatever it is that they want to get rid of, you know.

How do you do that? And there is something to say, hey, listen, this is how you do this. It's the resilience in you that says, listen, I am capable. I am worth the work, right? If you can't see that you're worth the work, you won't do the work. And so you are valuable to spread the message that was spread to me. Like, listen, you're worth it, right? People love you, right? There's a plan for you. And you can.

do this and it may not be what you thought. Like this is not the life I thought. It's better. It's better than what I thought. Right. I couldn't have guessed that I could be doing this. It's better. And so, so keep at it. But that is my, that is my superpower is the understanding and the resilience of what life can be both sides, the good and the bad and how it's just really never done.

as long as you're willing to keep working.

Hamish (1:06:08)
Fabulous, I love that, I love that. And I have really enjoyed our conversation. It's been fabulous. You've gone through about 25 million emotions, I think. Happy, sad, you've gone through everything. it's a testament to your resilience, isn't it? That you have got to that bottom, realized that I'm not dead, I don't wanna die, I love my children, and it's just remarkable. And Dan, thank you.

Thank you very, very much.

Dan Hungerford (1:06:39)
Very welcome. Anytime. Like I said, I'm thrilled to have been here, thrilled to have been able to share my story. Hopefully, somebody can benefit from my story. And if you want to get ahold of me, you know where to get ahold of me, and I'd be happy to chat with anybody. I appreciate the opportunity.

Hamish (1:06:57)
It's been wonderful and thank you so much indeed.

Hamish Niven (1:07:00)
Thank you for listening to this episode of The Crucible: Conversations for the Curious. If these powerful stories of transformation resonated with you, be sure to like, subscribe and share this show with anyone who you think could do with a dose of inspiration for their own journey. I would really appreciate it if you could make any comments on your favourite podcast platform as well, that helps me reach more people. All the important links and information are in the show notes below. Thank you very much for listening and catch up with you soon.