The Crucible:Conversations for the Curious

Hamish Niven (00:01)
Welcome to The Crucible, Conversations for the Curious. I am Hamish, your host. This podcast is for anyone going through awakenings, trying to make sense of life. Whether dark nights are the soul, needing to make life -changing decisions, struggling with addiction or critical illness, or simply realizing that their life as they know it is not aligned to values and purpose. You are not alone. You can get through this, promise you. Life is far more beautiful on the other side.

Hamish (00:29)
Hello everybody and welcome to another episode of The Crucible. I'm here today with Deborah and she's got a story that you need to sit down to listen to. Deborah, thank you so much for turning up. Thank you for offering to share your story. Can you start by telling me what happened in your 57th year?

Debra Blackman (00:46)
Yes, very happy to because now I'm on a mission to make sure that other people who are later in life don't feel that there's no hope and that they have to live like they've been living for the rest of their lives. so midway through my 57th year, I had been asked by a business person where I live to attend a networking event. It turned out that it was an evening with him.

and I hadn't realised that it was just him and I hadn't realised that he was assuming that I wanted bottles of wine and dinner and old patterns started to emerge again in me, triggers started to emerge again in me. I left that evening in floods of tears. I literally ran home because it was in running distance. I threw myself on the bed and I didn't want to wake up anymore.

I was completely out of control, weeping, sobbing, fell asleep sobbing, woke up sobbing and thought, you know what, I don't want to carry on like this. Weirdly enough, or not weirdly, but it was at the time, I had some form of divine support because it led me, my body, I don't think I was there in my mind.

to open up my laptop and type in counselors near me. Of which was a strange thing because for the whole of my life, I'd always thought from what I'd been through and what I'd had to cope with, that counseling would be the very last thing I needed because guess what? I thought it would induce a nervous breakdown. Interestingly enough, the nervous breakdown was induced by not having the counseling.

And I smile about it now because of the irony. But anyway, there was this entity thinking that the world was going to end then and typed in that, counsellors near me, got through to a publication called Psychology Today, and there was a directory that was in alphabetical order. And that's how I met Amy. I met her over the phone. I never saw her in person. And the wonderful thing about Amy that I've later found out

is that she's never available on the phone because she has back -to -back clients or that she's on the downtime taking out some time from being with clients. So the fact that she actually answered the phone was a minor miracle in itself. So thank you, Amy, for saving my life because that's exactly what she did. And in this daze and haze of being completely...

discombobulated, completely disorientated, completely not me. Once a week she started to ask me probing questions and once a week I started to open up and I realised on the first session that I thought I'd just have one and that would be enough as you do, that this was going to be a little bit longer and that it was then time.

to tell my story, not necessarily to her, but allow the words to come from my mouth and to express them in a way that I'd never done before and to let the demons out so that something could replace it. This wasn't a conscious decision. It was just something that happened. Amy was obviously very good at asking the right questions.

But I think I'd come to a point in time where it was that or oblivion. And oblivion, once I'd started talking about my issues, didn't seem the attractive option that it did at the beginning. So that's why I kept on going. Very helpful sessions. And on the sixth week, I gave birth to my monster. It was a physical transformation.

It was a spiritual metamorphosis. I physically felt the pain. I thought I was going to have to go to A &E. I completely know that what I saw was real as this monster emerged from me. Dark, stinking, heavy, horrible, with red eyes, bearing down on me, not wanting to go. I won't say the words here, but there were two. One began with F and the other one with O.

of which I shouted at the top of my lungs over and over and over again. I live in a terraced house because I think everybody must have heard. I don't think it was silent. I truly believe that I was saying those words. And eventually, eventually, that monster started to go away from me. And I was lying on the floor, not even on my bed, because I was in absolute agony. was sweating. I felt like I was...

having appendicitis or peritonitis, it felt like that. The monster started to rise above me. It started to get closer again and I kept on with my whole being telling it to do what I said. And then very quickly, it went out the door of my kitchen. It went down the hallway to my front door.

and it went through the letterbox and it disappeared. And I knew then, but it would never come back, that what I had now was a vacuum that I felt completely empty, completely at peace, completely at one with the world and with myself. I didn't know what was happening at that point, but now after reading some...

very interesting material and listening to podcasts about spirituality. At that point, I'd found myself, I'd found my essence, I found who I was. And I knew at that moment that whatever happened in life afterwards, I had the ability and the strength and the resilience and the love to be able to take it on my shoulders and deal with it without fear, anxiety.

or depression or victimhood because in that moment I knew that I had changed in a cellular level. That means every cell in my body had changed and even my appearance outwardly after I started to go out back out into the world again people said you look different have you been on holiday? Have you got a new skincare regime? You look happier. Well what's happened? Have you got a boyfriend?

And I knew that I changed completely inside as well. At that moment, I forgave my abusers, I forgave my parents. I don't say that they were right to do what they did, but I understand that there were circumstances that they had gone through in their lives that they hadn't unraveled or they hadn't thought to look into. They hadn't had the experience and the blessing.

that I had by going through the experience that I did and I was able to forgive. And again, in that act of forgiveness, it helped me transcend all of the anxiety, all of the victimhood, all of the blame, all of the shame and the guilt that I felt from having been a child that I always felt had deserved it, attracted it, and that I was the person that

that really was that kind of person that these things happened to. And that all left me. And so I realized that an act of forgiveness was actually more liberating and freeing for me. And both my parents are dead, but I just felt this peace and calm and acceptance. And so carrying on through my 57th year,

I then found that I wanted to listen to uplifting motivational speakers on podcasts, in books, et cetera. I didn't want to, and this just came naturally, I didn't want to expose myself to mainstream media. I didn't want to get involved into negative discussions. I wanted

to hear about those wonderful things that I felt I missed out on all my life. Although I heard them, I didn't internalize them. I didn't understand them. Yeah. And so with that came this desire for learning and I'm on my own. I have to look after myself. So during this process, I still had to work and I still had to earn a living and I have my own business. So I couldn't take any time off. So I managed to patch myself up as much as I could and put a brave face on things.

Hamish (09:27)
you

Debra Blackman (09:51)
But actually, you know, once I was going through it, I understood that there was going to be a wonderful outcome. So I knew that I could keep going and get up every day knowing that that was on the horizon. So that spurred me on. And interestingly enough, moving on from that, I listened to this type of material from people like Tony Robbins, Mel Robbins,

There are a host of those people. And I just felt, yes, I can understand this positive thinking, positive talking, but there must be something more within us that acts as the anchor, that acts as the grounding, that acts as the center. And so that's when just naturally I started to listen to more things of an esoteric spiritual nature.

And that's when I really felt that I'd come home and that I'd felt at one and at peace with myself. And I'm still learning and I'll never stop. And it gave me this massive sense of belonging and purpose and truth. And there is a different way of coming down the stairs. It's not necessarily that you have to go on your head, which I was doing and causing myself a headache. It's actually, you can go on your feet.

and hold the balusters. And it's like, wow, that's incredible because I've been doing it wrong all my life. And it just put a different perspective on things. And so now I can be in situations which before would have triggered me to the point of making me want to run away or being scared or lashing out. Now I've found I'm much kinder, I'm more patient, I'm more understanding.

of the fact of me and how wonderful I am, but also that everybody else is on their own journey and that actually we're just all rubbing together in a wonderful kind of soup of human beingness. And I don't judge anymore. I don't think that I'm right and people are wrong. I understand that polarity needs to be there to get the whole frame. And actually me thinking that I'm right,

I used to think I was right a long time ago and I now know how wrong I was. So I can't really say that, I'm right, this is the way. Because if I change, that changes as well. So I've become much less controlling. I'm working on that side of things because I do still have a tendency to want to control things. But for me, it's about understanding that we're all here and that wherever

and however awful things that we do and I've done awful things in my life. But we're on this journey and it happened because it happened because it was meant to happen. And that gives us and gives me the opportunity then to say, well, right, how can I learn from this? And thoughts and feelings that I've had over the years, which I thought were coping mechanisms to serve me to get me through things I've now realized.

I don't need them anymore. And that's a little bit more challenging to try and to understand that there are different ways of doing things. But yeah, I think with that whole idea of being oneness, and for me that took on not from a religious perspective, but from a universal perspective that I am part of this most amazing creation. And to be a human being in the first place, the odds are like

tiny tiny tiny aren't they to become one anyway. And so I'm very fortunate to be a human being. I now believe that we don't die as our essences as our souls. I now believe that we do come back to learn the lessons and give forth the things that we need to do in each entity that we choose that it is a choice. And that made a lot of sense to me.

when I'm thinking, well, why did I go through these things? What happened to me? Why did it happen? Why was I the one that had to suffer in this way? And I heard somebody say, I'm trying to think of who it may have been, but I can't think exactly. But they made the analogy that if you are a mountain climber and you want to do great things as a mountaineer, you probably wouldn't want to settle.

for climbing the big hill at the back of your garden. You'd probably want to climb something like Mount Everest or Mount Kilimanjaro or one of the big ones. So actually, the things that I've gone through so far in my life are what mountaineers might call triumphs because I've scaled them and I've seen what they're like, these challenges.

And not that I'm courting more challenge, to be fair, because I think I've quite a lot, but when things come...

there I can look at it and go, okay, I've obviously got a lesson in my mountaineering life that I need to learn. And that kind of puts a different perspective on things. So the 57th year of my life was, yeah, it was different. It was very different from what I'd experienced before. And it taught me also not to fear.

the unknown, not to fear change so much because

I'll be okay. I've always been okay. I am okay. And I think that is the whole purpose of the fact that now I can understand what surrender is like. To surrender to the bigger force out there that has our best interests at heart and understands why we were here in the first place.

And it might sound a bit like, gosh, well, that's all a bit, I don't know, I can't see this. I can't touch it. I can't smell it. It goes against the kind of human being senses that we've got to try and manifest something that we can have in 3D. But then when I think about all of the radio waves, all of the Wi -Fi that we have, all of the hearing things that dogs can hear, but we can't.

all of the things that flies can see but we can't, there's so much more that we can't see and that we can't touch necessarily that you know a little bacteria in our body will be having a different experience of its life because it has different, it's a different size, it's a different thought process and so from that perspective I'm like there's a lot

that I don't see, that I know now exists outside of me and outside of my perception. And so once I trust that that's okay, I can, I can be more, I can be more solid, I can be more resilient, I can be more loving, because I haven't got all that protection that I needed before. I don't know if all this makes sense, but it makes sense to me. So I guess that's

the bit that counts.

Hamish (17:29)
It does make sense because you've, well, first of all, congratulations on removing that bug -eyed, red -eyed monster. I want to come back to that in a minute. But I think everything that you've said, how you've made sense of things is wonderful because we do have two choices. We can either live in that fear or we can go, you

This is way bigger. The universe is way bigger. Life is bigger. So there's got to be more. Science proves this. 20 years ago, science didn't prove that. This was right then. This is right now. Who knows what will be the next discovery from science? It may well be something completely different. But I think being that curious is wonderful and that accepting. And it does allow you to be resilient. And it does allow the punches to come.

and you roll them, doesn't it? I think that's wonderful. I want to come back to this monster that you eviscerated, that you got rid of. What was that for you? What have you attached to it? What left your body at that time?

Debra Blackman (18:42)
Evil. Evil left my body. The devil left my body.

I was possessed. I was possessed by the devil of my own making. I was possessed by all those little thought processes that I'd had since childhood that were in my subconscious. I was possessed by all of the negativity, all of the fear, all of the anxiety. And I know where they came from. They did come from a real place.

But unlike, let's say for instance, a wildebeest being chased by a lion.

When that lion hasn't caught them, they've run, they've got over it, and off they go again. But for me, and I think for lot of human beings, we then pack that experience into us as a learning for the future is, don't do that next time because this might happen again. And once you build these constructs of negativity, fear, anxiety,

Often as coping mechanisms as a child, my own reality was I had to protect myself. I had to be invisible as much as possible. I had to be unseen and unheard to be able to be okay. So every little thing that I did that gave me a voice or everything that gave me an instance of being noticed, I tried to block out because that wasn't going to keep me safe. And thank you. Thank them for everything.

these feelings and these thoughts, thank them, thank them, thank them, because I'm sure at that point they did help me. But then when I became an adolescent and an adult and away from that environment, they were still there, that the perpetrators weren't there. So the circumstances were different, but I couldn't adapt to them. So I tried to make false truth into the truth.

and then found that I was getting very bad reactions from people because I wasn't seen, I wasn't heard, didn't want a voice. so people would think that of me and then that compounded stuff. So I then learned that and internalized all of that. So this monster was the evil that I created within myself, the devil that I created within myself of taking all this and sucking all this negativity and keeping it in there. And then once that had gone,

then that left the newborn again. And that's why I can understand the phrase being born again, because that's literally what happened. So yes, in answer to your question, that's what that was. It was the devil of my own creation and I was possessed by that devil. And it did tell me what to do and it did control my thoughts and my actions.

And when it had gone, I realized the difference in a nanosecond. Instantly knew, could feel it, could think it, could see it, could breathe it. That difference of when it wasn't there.

Hamish (21:46)
I think that is remarkable. mean, as you described it the first time, had goosebumps all over my arms and my back. It just made me shudder because I have not experienced that, but I know the process of the coping strategies, keeping yourself small, all that kind of stuff. And I know it works as a child. you took it with you to an adult. I took it through me to an adult. And most people do.

And then it doesn't because you've got that contradiction. know, there's Deborah the adult, Deborah the child. This is running the show and you're going, hang on, I know better. I see things differently. So that puking out that monster, that that devil of your making I think is incredible. I have I haven't done anything like that, but I think. Yeah, I mean, you said it left you with a with an open space of potential. How did you fill that? What?

What were you able to do because that void, could quite easily come back if you're not able to go, I'm not going to. So you had to be vigilant. But what else did you do to make sense of your potential, I suppose?

Debra Blackman (22:53)
Well, I'm very familiar with the fact that nature abhors a vacuum, so it's going to be filled with something. And I asked the counsellor at this point what needs to be done, because once I described this event to her, she was concerned about things coming in that weren't going to be helpful for me moving forward. Now, at that point, I think I've got enough presence of mind and enough

innate knowledge that had run parallel to the monster but had never been given credence. That came to the fore. That was what was filling the gap. But for two weeks, I was like a newborn baby. For two weeks. It was about two weeks. And I know that that's actually not an uncommon timeframe from when people have had this kind of

scenario. And I was walking around going, my goodness. wow. This looks incredible. I've never seen things like this before. You know, like objects like spoons and vacuum cleaners. wow. This is incredible. And I've never done drugs, but I hear the fact that people who've done mushrooms or something, everything's like, wow. Well, I was having my wow moment that came about from that. So the little things and the knowledge.

of knowing that I now could tread this different path. And then I think all the things that were in the background, the good things started to come to the fore. And it was incredibly empowering feeling. The counselor, after we left therapy after eight weeks,

I think we got to a point in her level of understanding of these events and circumstances that she didn't feel comfortable taking on further therapy with me. And that was completely fine. And she said she didn't quite know how she was helping me, could help me moving forward. And I said to her, I don't actually think I need you in that capacity now. So that was good. But my own

understanding and my own thirst for the knowledge that I needed to then move forward from, by Divine download actually came to me. That wasn't something that the eye of me actually did, it was the download from the Divine, from the universe, showing me and guiding me what to be involved with and to what extent and to then when to change things.

And that was not my own influence. I know that, but I was guided for that. So I was very blessed and I feel very thankful that the goodness of the universe knew that the time was right for me to go down that path. And it led me down that path and I was willing to do it. So yeah.

Hamish (25:46)
I know what you mean by that wow moment. I left rehab, I felt I had been peeled. I felt my skin was baby fresh. I had no mask on and I could breathe. You know, I had done that. Held myself so tightly. So yeah, everything was. It was like taking your specs off, taking a mask off and it was profound. It wasn't scary. was really, yeah, so can completely understand what you said.

It's just living and seeing differently, isn't it? And believing things differently and understanding things differently.

Debra Blackman (26:19)
Yes, and not imposing my will on things. And that came, I was educated by Catholic nuns for a large part of my education. And what they used to say is, you know, be the servant of God. You know, God's will be done. And from a dogmatic perspective, you know, there's truth in that. You know, in the spiritual side of things, in the universal side of things, the universe, the higher powers will

be done. And I do catch myself on a regular basis. When I start to feel those feelings of tightness in my chest is probably the best way to describe it or in my gut. And as we all know, everything comes from the gut. And I think of it now I'm much more able to think, okay, that's interesting.

Thank you. What are you doing here? And it's like, what are you trying to teach me? What can I learn from you today? It's interesting that you're here. What brought this emotion up? And that helps enormously to dissolve it anyway. But interestingly enough, I can work through things a lot better. And I can see often, often something will happen. And about a day later, I'll go,

That's I was meant to learn from that. thank you Because I'm employing the right principles to be able to get the best outcome that I can

And for me, it's just like, I don't know why that came about. And then a day later or so, it's like, yeah, I know why now. It's interesting. When I know then that the quantum, the field that we can't see where everything is already created and it's all there, to dip into that, what I've realized is that that can happen instantaneously.

element of what I had as a construct before doesn't come into play anymore. It's when I'm in the right zone, if you're thinking about the frequencies and energies that we all are and everything is, when it clicks, it clicks and it clicks in a nanosecond.

And that's something which I've always been taught. And there's some degree of truth in this, that you study hard and long hours and study, study, study, and then you work hard and you work hard for long hours and work, work, work, work. And then you've got to get something else fitted in called sleep. So you've got to sleep properly and sleep, sleep, sleep, sleep. And then you've got to play and then you've got to this. And it's it's all kind of like exhausting.

But now I know that if I'm in what I consider and I'm using these air quotes because I don't want to give what I say to anybody else, but it's just the way I've constructed it. When I'm working in a flow state.

When things are right, they go bang. And I have this energy that it could be hours that I've been concentrating and it feels like seconds. And yet when I know I'm not quite in that, my goodness, it's like climbing a marathon of a mountain. It's just like so hard. And then I go, okay, why is this so hard? Why do I need to be like this now?

and I'm like, okay, just let go, surrender, get back into the state. Is it the right thing for me to be doing? Am I choosing an old mechanism as opposed to a new one? And then leave it for a bit and then come back and if I can get back into that flow state. But then again, if I pursue a path and I know it's not the right one, or I'm thinking, is this the right one?

It'll either happen instantaneously or I'm laboring, laboring, laboring. And I suddenly realize, that's not what I'm meant to be doing here. This isn't the right way for me. And so it's much more flow driven and acceptance driven and not trying to force square pegs into round holes.

Hamish (30:15)
Hmm.

Debra Blackman (30:30)
And that's life just in general. But the wonderful thing is money is great. And we all need to make money to live and have a happy life and make the choices that we want and give to others, which is fantastic. So money is exactly the same thing. When I'm in pursuit of closing deals or in pursuit of getting more areas of finance and abundance from a money perspective in my life, that now I realize follows the same patterns.

Hamish (30:33)
Bye.

Debra Blackman (31:01)
And it kind of pushes me down a certain pathway where I think, that's gonna, that's gonna work. And whereas before I'd be like, chase, chase, chase, chase, you know, close, close, close. It's just like, if it's meant to be, it's gonna be like that. And actually I'm getting more now than I did before with less effort, if that makes sense, I did. And I'm like, wow, I've got it. So what I'd love to do is help.

which we do in our business, help corporates to understand that you don't need to fight, fight, fight, fight, fight, fight all the time for money because when you let it come naturally, it comes bigger and better and quicker than you could ever imagine. So, yeah, that's the whole thing about the manifestation for me. That's another area of my life, which I like manifest. What are you talking about? Manifest.

And now I know that as part of the divine creator, because we've all got the part of the divine in us, we've got copious amounts of creativity and manifestation possibilities in us. And sometimes I think, right, what would I like to manifest now? And I just give it out there with the fact that I will surrender to what I need to do to do it.

And without really exception, as long as I don't put my own time defined thing in it, it kind of happens. And I'm like, I didn't think that was going to happen. And it did. And so I'm like, okay, well, if that can happen, let's do this and do this and trust the process. So that's kind of like the journey that I'm on now is trusting the process and having the things that

Hamish (32:38)
Hmm.

Debra Blackman (32:53)
I know through me should be manifested and manifesting them as part of my journey.

Hamish (32:59)
It's so counterintuitive, isn't it? Slow down, relax, surrender, don't push. And then everything comes and it's, it's the lesson I'm not learning. Well, that's not true. am, but so slowly because I keep on forgetting and keep on going push and then no hitting that wall and no. How do you encourage people to slow down and stop and watch and do everything that you've just said? Because it sounds deliciously easy.

Debra Blackman (33:26)
Well, anything that sounds easy isn't going to be, it? No, that's by definition, isn't it? know, nothing's ever easy, is it? That's worth doing. Well, this is the whole part of the journey. It's the whole part of trying to understand ourselves and what our purpose is. And a purpose doesn't have to be, you know, something where, you you're going to help 2 million people in 5 years to help with climate change or whatever.

Our purpose can be to love and to show compassion and to give and to be the best of the nanosecond that we're in versions of ourselves and be compassionate. We don't necessarily need this grand plan. But when I understood that I was part of something bigger and that I didn't make the universe, I didn't, I can't make it all happen. I can't control it.

The idea of control now is actually for me a bit laughable. But what I can do is be that vessel for what's to come. So encouraging people to slow down is people like to make the analogy I've found in business of the devil's in the detail. And when you're focusing on detail, it makes you slow down.

When you're big picture thinking and you're trying to rush through things or you're multitasking, that's when the issues happen because we're not really meant to multitask. We're meant to do little bits at a time and not try and get everything in this melee of everything else. And what I say to people is if we can think about the detail of the one thing that they're looking to get and understand why they want it, what's the purpose behind it.

And a lot of people then realize, well, actually, I don't really want the thing that I'm going for. I want the outcome that I think the thing will give me. But the thing isn't necessarily the thing to get me there. So when we think about that detail in business, it's about analyzing what do we want? What do we really, want? What do we want the outcome to be? But from a sense of, has that got a purpose in my life?

because I've wanted all sorts of things like fancy clothes and what have you, but that doesn't necessarily fulfill the purpose of my life. So the reason why I wasn't getting them is that the universe was going, come on, do you really want that? Is that the nature of what you want? Is it really what you want? And it's defining people in business with the detail, but what they want, is that really what they want? And is the thing that they wanted to get there the right thing?

And once they understand actually, let's open up the mind. Let's be a little bit more creative. Let's take some time to let things in and then to flow and to go with that flow. We all naturally guide us to where we need to be. And in business, because we give people back their time to be able to do these things. I always say, be very careful what you fill your time with.

because time is a very, very precious resource. And once the moment has gone, it will never come back in the same way. And the fact that we have another moment after that moment is a blessing. So I always say to people, when you use your time that we give you, give it wisely, make sure you're putting it into pursuits that are going to be for the benefit of you, of your loved ones, of humanity.

of the world, of the universe. And if you put that intention out with that benefit, all of a sudden, all these cogs start to move, all these incredible things start to happen. You start meeting the right people, which is miraculous. You start thinking of an idea which you never had before. You start maybe going on to a dietary regime that you've never thought that you'd do. You start to maybe think of

going out into nature in a way that you've never done before. It's all those things then start to come up and business is no different. know, spiritualism in business is becoming more accepted because I think people realize if we keep on doing the same things that we've always done, we won't get a different result.

And so it's that education, it's that awareness of actually not trying to impose our will on something, but actually have a more softer, gentler approach to allow the will of the universe to flow through us to do what we need to do. And that's where I think people have the greatest element of difficulty is thinking, well, I've got to do something. I've got to...

do the doing of it because I'm and actually they just don't get it. I was speaking to a very, very successful businessman just the other day and he said, I think it's 50 % the universe and 50 % me. And I said, wait, but you are part of the universe. So where is that 50 % not connected with the universe then? And he's like, but I've got to do something. I've actually physically got to do it. I said, well, in a way, yeah, but it's directed.

Hamish (38:36)
Mm -hmm.

Debra Blackman (39:03)
from outside from the universe to throw you? Are you sure? Yeah, because how else are you here? You're a little baby. You didn't have the knowledge of when you were a kid or a little tiny infant. I'm going to know how I'm going to feed myself or I'm going to know how I'm going to get the milk from my mum's breast or I know how I'm going to crawl. You didn't have that. That was all divinely given to you as your instinct.

and he's like, yeah, and I said and by three you'd have had three quantum moves in your life you would have been able to feed yourself you would have been able to walk and you would have been able to talk but you didn't do that yourself and somewhere others people get confused and I've done it so long it took me to 57 is to realise that actually us thinking that we're doing it is completely ridiculous because we're not

It's the universe that guides us and when we get all into this, like I did, this completely difficult state about I can't exist like this, we'll know because that's how wrong as human beings we can get it.

And, you know, in a way, wouldn't it be wonderful if people in power in politics or, you know, positions of influence could actually see this constant circle of fighting, of insufficiency, of anxiety around the world, but each one of them gets caught up in this merry -go -round. And it's like, okay,

But surely what you must see is that it's not working. So why don't we take a different approach? But each time they're just like the businessman that said to me the other day, well, I've got to do something. And it's like, why? You haven't. You're going to be the vessel that then does the thing. And he was like, I kind of get it, but I don't get it. I kind of get it, but I don't get it. You know, it's a difficult concept. It's not an easy one.

Hamish (41:14)
Yeah, needs some thought. For a long while, I evolved or devolved to be a human doing. And it is difficult to get out of that mindset, especially when you've been brought up by it, when your parental things, as you said, work hard, work hard, work harder. And when you finish work hard, do a bit more and then you might earn some money. You might deserve the rest, you might deserve, but you have to do all that stuff first.

I want to go back because before you kicked out your demon, what did you learn from all those experiences? You've already mentioned that they, I don't want to say defined you, they helped create you. those lessons, those traumas, those events, how did they help you comprehend the world and how much of that do you still use going forwards with your life?

Debra Blackman (42:06)
So I liken this to a piece of hard wiring.

So when we have a computer system, every now and again, and our phones as well, they tell us that we need to reboot because there's been an upgrade or there's been something else. But when we don't do that, we stick in version one, plus a load of other stuff that we kind of put in there and think is going to fit. So.

I would have to say that none of the things that came in that monster were useful to me. They were all limiting and damaging. The things that had been going on, and I used the analogy of the quantum field where the opposite of one exists, good and bad, that was already there.

Hamish (43:02)
Mm

Debra Blackman (43:03)
compassion, humility, love, joy, peace, resilience, serenity, trust. It was there. So I was very fortunate in the sense to have a complete breakdown because it left me with this massive vacuum. I couldn't put a plaster on anything to keep it together because there wasn't anything left. And that was above and below ground.

It had all gone because I had completely crumbled. I'd gone as I was before. So that was the greatest blessing that I could have had in my life, to be honest. And it could be perceived as the greatest horrible issue ever. But it wasn't. For me, it was framed in a way of thank you so much for stripping it all away.

And so then all of the things that came in afterwards were the

polar opposite, positive polar opposite to what left me. Now I know that there are areas of shadow in myself that, albeit that the, that ball of evil left me, as always in human beings, we come from imperfection. So there's always going to be, as I'm now,

living a life with challenge, lots of challenge actually, because that doesn't leave you once you become awakened. It doesn't mean that you're living in this feather bed of a brilliant existence with nothing ever happening that's not brilliant, because let me tell everybody, it still happens in abundance actually. But that's probably because you're able now to learn more and take it into a different realm.

But I still now work on that shadow because basically what happens every now and again is I can be triggered. It happened not so long ago, a couple of weeks ago that somebody was talking about an issue which I felt very strongly about because of my own childhood. And I could feel this bubbling of emotion coming up.

And whereas before I'd be like suppressing, suppressing, well God don't show anybody that I'm reacting to this, my God, you know, this is going to be embarrassing, don't cry, whatever you do, don't cry. And I could feel it welling up. And I thought, right, I'm going to thank it, thank the feeling for welling up. So I was going, thank you, that's great, thank you. And all of a sudden I realized, I have no control over this now, this is going to take me over. This is going to take me over. And there's a reason why it needs to do that.

because it needs to be released. And so the people that I was with, I said, I'm going to go now. And I thank you very much. I've just been triggered. I've been triggered for the last half an hour about the things that you've been discussing. And the reason why I've been quiet is because I've been triggered. And now I have to remove myself so that I can handle it. They're all like, what's going on? You're a demonstrator wobbly.

Hamish (46:14)
you

Debra Blackman (46:15)
And I said, I love you all. It's got nothing to do with you. It's got nothing to do with the conversation per se, but the issues that were raised, I can't face now and I'm going to have to go. I would appreciate it if nobody came with me because I need to be on my own. And I suddenly thought, my God, is that me talking? Is that me saying all of this rather than just getting up and leaving in floods of tears? I've actually expressed the whole process.

of what's just been happening. And I took myself out and I literally put my arms around myself and I hugged myself and I said, thank you. Well done you. You did it. It was brilliant. The feeling was incredible. I still felt pretty bad about the trigger, but that whole process of how I went through it and obviously how I was analyzing what was happening is a real gift because once I could do that,

and go, okay, I know why I'm reacting like this. I know why I want to shout at somebody. I know why I want to feel guilty about something. I know why I feel feelings of self -loathing and lack and what have I know why. And once I've got the why, I'm like, okay. It then dissolves. Weirdly, it just kind of just dissolves.

And I went out of the restaurant and I walked down the road and I'm, thank you for feeling like this. Tell me what I need to learn. I allow the feelings. It's all right to cry because I'm a good person. I've been through shit. I've, you know, I've, fine. I'm good. I'm having all of this experience. And I get some beeps on my phone, which I knew was from the people saying, you are you safe? Are you okay? And I thought not going to deal with that until

I'm in a point where I can deal with that. And so very quickly, very quickly, within about five minutes, I got to a point where I'd congratulated myself on the understanding of what I've just been through, why it was happening, what was happening, thanking it and saying, you know what, as much as I love you, little Deborah, we don't need that kind of behavior now because we're safe.

and we're sound and we're going to be like this forever. So thank you for letting me know about that because for years I suppressed all of that and told it to go away. And I said, thank you. And now we move on. And then I looked at my phone and they're like, where are you? You say for you, okay. And I went back to each one of them and I said, I'm all good. I'll be back in 10 minutes. Don't worry about me. I'm fine. Go have a good time. And I'll be back. And when I'm back, you don't need to ask me about anything.

I'll be cool. And when I'm back, I was back and everybody went, no, we don't ask her if she's okay, because she said not to. And off we go again. And now somebody else came back to me and they said, wow, that's taught me a lot because similar stuff I didn't realize had happened to them and they weren't feeling great either. And I said, it's okay to be not okay.

Hamish (49:19)
you

Debra Blackman (49:37)
And so again, this whole journey is helping me to know that we don't have to be okay the whole time. But when we're not okay, we can take it and go, what's it trying to teach me? How can I learn from this? And then how can I move forward? And if there is a positive way at that time, great. And if there's not, that's also great. But understanding that that will pass, that feeling will pass because everything does pass in time.

There's a biblical quote again, it's that this too shall pass. And it does. And it might take five minutes, it might take five weeks, it might take five months, it might take five years, but it will pass. And as soon as I then surrender, the big thing about surrender is I've let go. I've let go. In that moment, I've let go.

and usually what happens is then there's a serenity that happens from that surrender. And it's a beautiful thing to be able to do because I've not been able to do it before.

Hamish (50:44)
Thank you. was beautiful. I think you've wrapped up the conversation. That is such a place to leave hope and a lot for people to think about, including me. Deborah, I think that was spectacular. We will definitely do another podcast another time, but yeah, that is to leave it for now.

Debra Blackman (51:01)
Thank you. Thank you very much.

Hamish (51:08)
I'm sure there's going to be questions. I'm sure people are going to be curious about you and what you do. you know, this conversation, I know I want to continue it. How can people find out more about you and what you do?

Debra Blackman (51:22)
well, thank you very much. If there is anybody out there, I'd love people to be in touch. And one thing I say is I'm a great listener. don't make any judgments. If anybody wants to talk about something that has maybe triggered in them what I've discussed, absolutely fine to do so.

I'm on all the usual social media channels and I know that you'll pop those up as well and I've got a podcast called Sphere of Being which is caring for those who care for others and so that's talking from my heart as well with a co -host of mine called Norma and we have guests on that show as well and for me it's all about spreading the word and as I said right at the beginning.

that there is hope, there is a way of doing things if life isn't easier, as easy as you'd like it and you think that there's some things that you'd like to sort out, they can be sorted out, you can have a great time. But what I would say is, on the face of it, actually, life doesn't change in the sense that you're with rainbows and bunny rabbits and things like that, you still get

the issues, but it's the way that it's framed, it's the way that we can look at things, it's the way that we're dealing with things, knowing that they're nourishing us for bigger and better things, they're giving us stepping stones to be able to move onwards and upwards, rather than to drag us down and to swamp us and to make us into victims and being unhappy. But if you're prepared for that, then I'd say this journey is amazing, and I'd recommend it to anybody.

Hamish (52:59)
Absolutely. It is worth the bruise and knuckles, the banged head, scratched knees. It's worth absolutely everything because yeah, the grass is greener on the other side. You still have to carry wood, you still have to chop water all the other way around, but you still, you do it with a different perspective and you've really shown me how important it is to do that. Yeah.

Debra Blackman (53:24)
Well, thank you, Hamish. It's been a real pleasure. Thank you.

Hamish (53:28)
Then one last question. What did you learn from your 57th year? What was the superpower that you gained from that fairly harrowing experience?

Debra Blackman (53:40)
I was going to say something and now I've changed my mind. So thank you. The oneness. The oneness with everything. Being part of this amazing universe. Yeah, being one, being in the one is just...

It's just awesome. It really is. So yeah, it's being in that oneness of the universe.

Hamish (54:01)
Beautiful. Thank you. Thank you very very much.

Debra Blackman (54:06)
Lovely. Thank you too.

Hamish Niven (54:07)
Thank you for listening to this episode of The Crucible: Conversations for the Curious. If these powerful stories of transformation resonated with you, be sure to like, subscribe and share this show with anyone who you think could do with a dose of inspiration for their own journey. I would really appreciate it if you could make any comments on your favourite podcast platform as well, that helps me reach more people. All the important links and information are in the show notes below. Thank you very much for listening and catch up with you soon.