The Crucible:Conversations for the Curious

Hamish Niven (00:01)
Welcome to The Crucible, Conversations for the Curious. I am Hamish, your host. This podcast is for anyone going through awakenings, trying to make sense of life. Whether dark nights are the soul, needing to make life -changing decisions, struggling with addiction or critical illness, or simply realizing that their life as they know it is not aligned to values and purpose. You are not alone. You can get through this, promise you. Life is far more beautiful on the other side.

Hamish (00:29)
Right. Hi everybody. Today I'm chatting with Keely. She's in a wonderful networking community that I'm in as well. And we've met through that and we've had some great conversations about business and work. And over time she shared some of her story and she's come along today to share her story with us. So Keely, thanks so much for turning up today.

Keely Woolley (00:49)
It's my pleasure. And as you say, we've had many conversations and I know that we've got lots of synergies and similar values and beliefs. So it's really nice to be chatting with someone that's on that same pathway, I suppose, of change.

Hamish (01:06)
well thank you for being here, Keely, and can you please tell me a little bit about your story?

Keely Woolley (01:10)
Well, it's quite a journey, actually. But I suppose the starting point, really, when things rapidly changed is that in 2020, I was part of let's just say, strategic reorganization within business. ultimately, the journey up until that point, probably the two years beforehand, was quite challenging, quite toxic, know, lack of clarity.

And of course it then also had an impact on myself because I was focusing on my team. Because, you know, as a leader you have responsibilities to be looking after them. But the biggest problem I had is that I wasn't also focusing on myself, which ultimately led to me having a massive anxiety attack in Schiphol Airport of all places, which is not ideal.

having just had an interview in my office that is in Schiphol. I think it's just like everything just sort of built up to sort of like enough is enough really, you're not listening to me. And I just broke down, just started sobbing and sobbing and sobbing and sobbing on the escalator and just sort of collapsed. And then ultimately got led off in a wheelchair. And then, you know, really that was the first

let's say kick to turn around and say something needs to change. But as you know, as when we're stalwart characters, we keep on going on and we think that we are superhuman. And then I finally got the phone call to say that I wasn't successful in my interview and I was put at risk for redundancy. having just done the same in my team, I then had to do this, you know, went through the same myself. And that was when mentally and physically I ultimately shut down.

and yeah, went on my own healing journey, so to speak, from that point. Because yeah, not an ideal time because of COVID, so I wasn't able to speak to a therapist, or wasn't able to see a therapist, as say, so I had to find my own way.

Hamish (03:23)
That's tough, it? mean, being asked to sort out a team and strategically thin it down and then bye bye at the end of it.

Yeah, I mean, what were you doing running that team? mean, explain a bit more of that backstory because I know there was more to that. I know that you were successful and it was something that you were really, really, really proud of doing.

Keely Woolley (03:49)
Yeah, I mean, I'd actually worked for the company for over 23 years and I my last role, excuse me, I was a program and delivery director for Group Acumen. was a FTSE 100, big corporate organization. So I've been extremely successful. I've grown an amazing team, which I can only describe we were like a family, very, very supportive, very collaborative, know, lots of striving and in fact,

We helped design the future organization. It was like an elevated department from where we were at to effectively create an enterprise which was for program delivery, which was associated to the corporate plan because, ultimately one of the biggest things that I found was that, you know, quite often you had all of these different departments delivering different programs and projects.

and they weren't necessarily aligned. means that there was overlap in what we doing and until you actually have it so it's connected up the corporate plan, it means that people are going in different directions. There's different, you know, priorities and that then led to, you know, sort of more challenges. So the reason why we designed this and proposed it to them was one, to ensure that we was all aligned. It also meant that we were saving significant amounts

money within the business because when you're streamlining things it means that you're using resources correctly and indeed bringing in consultants at the right time rather than them being brought in and then staying there for ever more when in reality what you can do is actually use your internals. So that's what we designed and then say unfortunately instead of me getting the role.

To run the department, the chap that I would have worked for ended up recruiting externally someone that he knew. And then the knock -on effect was instead of it being able to elevate my team as well and utilize them in the right way, they ended up recruiting from different departments, so different priorities and everything like that. So it had a significant impact on me because obviously we've worked so hard.

to develop something that was going to be extremely successful for the whole of the business, know, creating value. And yeah, it didn't quite work out how we anticipated. And it really took its toll on me. And I think the greatest gift I got at that time was one of my junior project managers. I had to actually tell her before she went away on her honeymoon.

and get her to sign an NDA and tell her that she was ultimately going to be put at risk while she was away on her honeymoon. And it devastated me. I was in tears. And I know some people think why the lady shouldn't do that, but when you've created a relationship with an individual within your team, which you really believe in, I mean, it broke my heart. And she actually said to me, do you know what, you leave? She said, you're not responsible for this.

you know, the one that you've got to be responsible for is yourself. You need to take care of yourself. You can't look after us and we're all adults. And I mean, that was someone, you know, 20 odd years old, you know, and the fact that I had to tell her, you know, before she went on a honeymoon was just, I mean, just awful, absolutely awful. And she weren't allowed to tell the rest of the team either. So not good. So yeah, so I've had a very successful career.

And, you know, I was good at it. But I think when I actually did finally crash and burn, as I call it, the body turned around and said, you know, you've got to start listening. I think it made me realize that I've fallen into so many traps that, ex -exes and leaders quite often fall into, particularly as women. And it really made me reevaluate some of the mistakes I've made along the way.

Hamish (08:02)
Thank you for that. It's tough, isn't it? You strive, you encourage your team, you nurture them, and then for that to happen. But it's always the case, isn't it? When you start to look back, you start to see those things that you missed, the pushing, the encouraging, the nurturing, the doing everything else for other people. And as you said, not really looking after yourself quite enough. And...

We're resilient, we manage for long time, but as you said, you hit a wall and then you just drop. So what happened after they wheeled you off, I gotta say in a wheelbarrow, they wheeled you off in a wheelchair.

Keely Woolley (08:44)
I mean, the interesting thing is, that, I mean, obviously, they were worried that there was more to it, you know, like perhaps I've had a heart attack or something like that. So they obviously put me in first aid and monitor me within there for a period of time. And they also gave me some tablets to try to calm my nerves. And they actually did contact the HR department for me, the lady, because she was Dutch and could obviously translate

what it was that I was saying and they were saying and you know put me in a space of ease. And I mean even then you know she said to her you know you can't keep doing this to yourself you've got to start focusing on you and you know you can't keep everybody else happy. And it's interesting you know when you hear my full story you know one of the things that became a reality

for me, you know, I mean, obviously, like you, I know that when you go on this healing journey, the biggest thing when it was like COVID, obviously, we weren't able to spend time with other people. you know, I was able to go out and walk my dog. I went out walking my dog every single day. And whilst I was walking them, you know, at the beginning, there was like all this noise going on, you know, you're on repeat, on repeat, you're referring back to what went on over and over again.

And initially you think it is, you know, the redundancy that's caused the burnout, but it's not. It's a catalyst. It's like the final now and the coughing that's saying enough is enough. And as well as doing sort of walking the dog and, you know, the hours of walking, I spent so many hours doing that and doing things like gardening. I started doing things like yoga and meditation and just slowing down, you know, just...

spending some time on my own and being present. And when you are in those spaces, you do get more time to reflect on the past. You get more time to reflect on some of the decisions that you've made. You have more time to focus on, you know, what led to some of the decisions that you've made.

And some of the things that other people have said, know, one of the things that I recognize is that I'm huge, you know, I'm not anymore, but you know, people -pleaser, always trying to keep everybody else happy, not rocking the boat, know, trying to ensure that everybody was in a happy space, you know, those kinds of things. And the other thing with that as well is that because of working in a male environment,

I was always trying to prove myself, trying to be heard, wanting to stand out. So I doing things like was volunteering for everything, always trying to prove myself, I'll take on this, I'll take on that. You end up taking on the world. And the interesting thing is not only are doing that for you, you're doing it for your team. So you end up taking loads of stuff for them as well. So not only are you...

burning yourself out, you're actually burning your team out whilst others are taking a back seat and not doing things themselves. And I think that's the important thing is that it makes you realise all of the things that you've done when you stop and slow down and take time out for yourself.

Yeah, bit of reflection.

Hamish (12:23)
Isn't it hindsight is a wonderful thing and we just have to learn to use it compassionately rather than why did I do that? Beat myself up for that, beat myself up for that. Realize it was just the part of that journey that we're going through. It is that. mean, I remember thinking my business partner was a bit like you. She would not stop. Perfect, perfect, perfect team member.

work relentless, do everything on and on and on. And after our business, she went on and did her own thing and she had a stroke. She's only 45. Because that was her mentality as well. It was just give and work and give and work. And the irony is it's expected and sort of, not society, corporate life almost appreciates. Well, they do, don't they? Because it helps their bottom end.

Keely Woolley (12:56)
Mm. Mm.

Hamish (13:15)
But ultimately, as you said, no one's a winner. And the business compromises as well, doesn't it?

Keely Woolley (13:23)
Yeah, well it means that you're not performing at your highest, your team are not performing at their highest. I mean you think you are because you have this whole list of things that you've got, know, I mean we had like lots and lots of projects and I mean they were big, big projects, know, sort of multiple countries. I mean we were serving about 27 different countries at the time, so when you are doing a project they're, you know, they're not small ones.

But then there's all the other strategy that comes with it. You know, when you're part of the corporate team, you know, at group level, there's loads of other projects that you end up doing as sports in different departments. But there's only so much you can do. But the problem is, is that it's the old phrases that you give an inch and they'll take a mile. And, you know, it just gets stretched and stretched and stretched. And yet you'll see others

have been more respectful of their boundaries and said no or not actually volunteered. And they're doing like the normal, you know, days work, but without pushing the boundaries constantly. And, you know, quite often they get elevated, they get promoted, you know, they get more opportunity. And the reality is, is that, you know, you start resenting them because they're not doing everything.

But you created that situation, you you created that environment where you're constantly volunteered and it doesn't just stop in the workplace. It happens within your personal life, you know, whether it's with your friends or your family, you know, if you've got that nature where you want to be helping everybody and serving everybody and making sure that everybody's happy, you know, you're giving and giving and giving and giving.

And quite often those individuals don't know how to ask you whether you want any help because you don't allow them to help you. They think that you're doing okay. don't worry. Keely wants to do it. She's the one that likes organizing things. Don't worry, Keely will get it done. Don't worry. You you're that sort of mindset. So other people start relying on you, not because they're taking advantage of you. You've allowed that situation to occur.

Hamish (15:44)
It's, it's, it's, yeah, madness, isn't it? Yeah. So, so what did you, what did you do when you, you left? What was,

Keely Woolley (15:45)
I know, isn't so.

Well, the irony of it, so the irony of it. So when they actually put me at risk, the general management team was like, why have you decided to do this? He is the Brexit specialist and I've been running it for over four years. So they did offer an alternative role within the business, which I didn't want to take because it was working for an area that I didn't want to be a part

because I knew it was quite toxic and all those kind of things. But I did say to them that, then I won't take that role. But if you want me to come back as a consultant and continue running Brexit, then I'm happy to do that. So that's what I agreed. So I set up my own consultancy business. So although I crashed and burned, obviously a month into it, I've been signed off sick.

That's when the conversation started happening about what it was we was going to do and how I was going to manage it and those kind of things. And it was during that time that I said, you know, I'll come back and do Brexit as a consultant. And I did that probably because of all of the delays that have happened with Brexit for probably for another year and a half, two years, I think. So.

I make hay while the sun shines, as they say. And I also got opportunities to do consultancy work for other companies as well, because I was a specialist in that area. And some of the suppliers that knew me from when I was in that business and saw all the stuff I was posting about Brexit and all those companies, they then contacted me and said, would you be interested in doing an audit on us and where we are?

and helping us where it's needed. So, you know, I was doing that as well. So that was that was great. So it me opportunities in that area. But interestingly, whilst I was doing all that work, particularly where I was working for the same company I was working, I realized that I hadn't changed anything. I was effectively doing the same role, but as a consultant. And because I still had that emotional connection with the

and the individuals that are working. Imagine if you're someone for 23 years, there's not many parts of the business that you don't know about and people you don't know about. So you've still got that emotional connection with them. So where there's bureaucracy, where there's politics, where there's toxic environments, where there's certain behavior, you're still getting sucked into that. And also their expectations of you are still the same because they know what you was like before.

I mean, it was really high pressure. I'm going to have to say when we went live for Brexit on January the first, I mean, we, I mean, we, started serving day, day one. We, I mean, obviously got, got that right. I'm not saying there weren't delays, but we got it sorted out. But I mean, those first three weeks was like probably one of the hardest times in my entire career because of long days, the pressure, I mean, 200 emails, like people messaging, complaining and

even if it wasn't my fault, had people sort of like, you know, not being very pleasant, even my really good friends who ended up apologizing numerous times. But it made me have more of a wake up call of, actually, this isn't what I love. This isn't what I enjoy doing. It doesn't fill me up. So having had sort of like those few months before I went to

July the first is when I officially started working because you had to have time out when you're made redundant with the company. But because I had that rest in time, it sort of made me realize how much I really didn't enjoy that side of it. But on reflection, the thing that I really enjoyed more than anything was when I was coaching and training and guiding and, you

when people get in that inspiration, seeing that light shine in their eyes when they've got an idea, see it, know, helping them to go through that process of change and turn them into reality. It was that part of it. I knew passionately was what I loved and enjoyed doing. So it was then that I decided actually is the difficult path that I need to be going and then changing my direction and the coaching, the training and mental and the society.

you know, that I decided to go on as a business. What I didn't know at that time was the what. So again, I then had to go on some more sort of journeys of discovery.

Hamish (20:44)
That's life, isn't it? It is. It's journey, level up, sit there, look around, get a club and off you go again. How did you get to that point where you realised it was the working with people, encouraging them to find their greatness and their aha moments? How did you work out that's what you wanted to do? Because obviously that's quite a change from the corporate environment of Brexit and everything.

Keely Woolley (21:11)
think because obviously with my teams, mean, if you looked at my journey, everything that I've done is about sort of business improvement, about training others and coaching and development. I I was trained as a world -class manufacturing practitioner, which is teaching. I was trained as a Kaizen practitioner. You know, and everything I did was a practitioner.

which then helps you to build teams, to lead teams, to train people, to coach people, everything is on that path. And whenever I was doing those kinds of things, running workshops with people, that was when I was in my element. That is what I enjoyed passionately. And interestingly, I think it became more of a reality. In June 21,

Well, prior to doing first of all, I actually joined this executive networking events group, an amazing lady called Shelley, and signed up to go to Crumb Castle in Northern Ireland to stay there for a week for a masterclass. was a big investment. Part of it meant that you wrote a chapter within a book about your own journey, your personal story. The book was called The Art of Risk and Reward.

My chapter was actually defining moments, you know, effectively about changing your pathway, you know, really. And at the same time, it meant that you had the opportunity to be standing on platforms and speak in front of an audience and the Eulachrom. And plus it was going to be streamed to about eight and a half thousand of audience. So nothing small.

But whilst I was, when I signed up for that, and I thought, well, I had no idea how I was going to do it. I thought, you know, I'll do this anyway. And I also knew that there were so many things that needed to change within the corporate environment, you know, with leaders, you know, about having clarity of vision, about being clear about what your values and your beliefs are, about

supporting the teams within the organisation, thinking about the guts of the organisation, which I know sounds a weird term, but I was designing something that was based on the face of the business, the heart of the business, the mind of the business and the guts of the organisation. And it was, you know, I had all of these...

thoughts in my head about what needed to be done. I just didn't know how to do it. So in June of 21, this little man popped up on my screen, known as Andy Harrington, and was talking about how you can turn your service into a product. you know, because most of us, especially in coaching training, we have got all of these ideas about how you can help people, but we're not very good at actually turning it into a product

people can see a tangible product that people can see. And this is where he came into the equation. And he's talked about how you can actually do this and also be able to communicate it in a way on the stage in a platform. was like, this is exactly what I need. So I watched one of these webinars, which was only supposed to be a small one, thought I'd do the same thing that most people do is that just

partially listening to a webinar, partially doing other stuff, know, drinking, doing multiple things. But as soon as it started, I was like, boom, I was in there and I stayed there for like four hours. Then I stayed at the end of it, you know, signed up for the next week. Then I signed up for Spica University, which took four days. I was the first one to sign up through Spica Academy. And then I joined that and then I ended up then becoming one of these coaches and mentors to train other people to speak on a platform.

So I'd gone sort of like, this massive journey all in one go, I don't do anything by heart. But it helped me to be able to formulate a program where I could coach and train others to be able to rediscover what it was that they truly love, you know, be able to build a pathway of change for them. But before they did

you know, try to unlock and unblock some of the things that are holding them back. You know, the self -talk, know, the lack of self -belief, you know, the confidence, the stress management, you know, not actually taking care of ourselves, all of those fun things. So the first time I was able to sort of bring everything together of my 23 years of experience into a way that can help others to escape.

or avoid altogether all of the things that I've been doing over the years. Quite a long story about it, yeah, that was really ultimately how I got to now.

Hamish (26:31)
Thank you for that. I think that's remarkable. As you were saying that I was just following my timeline. you've basically throughout all of your working life, you've been trained how to coach people. You've done courses on how to coach people. So while you were working hard, you've had all that education teaching you all the skills you need now to go off on your own and add your magic into it. think that is really delightful.

but you've had to get to a place, a dark hole to then look back. I did the same thing. I worked in the TV industry. I got paid to listen to amazing people talk. I realized three weeks ago, I got paid to learn how to interview people and how to hold a space and how to encourage conversation and things like that. And it's really wonderful when you are able to look back and go, it all makes sense now. All that crap, all the fun, all the heartache, all

redundancy, all this, that and the other. And when you do join it all up, when you have that quiet time that you said, that slow time, it begins to make a bit more sense, doesn't

Keely Woolley (27:36)
Yeah, it does. It does. And it's quite magical as well. you suddenly have that wake up call. And interestingly, I had, it's almost like a second wave. Now, sadly, my brother died two years ago. And when I was first told about his diagnosis, and it was very rapid, know, that we felt from the day we found out to the point that he passed away. But when I was first spoke,

told about his diagnosis for it, I had almost like another wake up call because originally I was thinking, you know, let's focus on leaders within businesses, CEOs, know, the teams and, you know, be within that corporate environment.

Why am I actually sending myself into a location that was actually contributing to me feeling the way in which I was feeling? In fact, what I should be doing is actually helping other amazing, incredible women that are ambitious, doesn't matter where they are, whether it's in organizations, whether it's being entrepreneurs or business owners, is to be able to help them to...

effectively escape or avoid all of those patterns of behavior that I've fallen into. Focus on people that I can connect with that, as you say, when you're talking a story, the challenges, your learnings, your experiences, you're talking the same language, you're talking to people that are going to connect with what it is that you're saying. And if you can tap into your own

journeys and your own genius and so and be able to help people. what better things can you do in life? I mean know myself every single time I help someone and it doesn't matter whether it's it is female or male because quite often there are men that actually gravitate towards me because of the things I say you know it's more they get with the emotional connection why it's you know.

the emotional intelligence, why it's so important. They recognize some of the traps. But when you do that, when you see that moment of clarity, when you do see that light shining in someone's eyes when they have that moment, and you can help them to move away from where they are, mean, what's more magical than that? And I mean, every single time, here, this is where I feel

every single time and it makes me smile and it's an amazing thing to be a part

Hamish (30:20)
I think that's lovely, isn't it? And then you've given them a chance to start to believe in themselves and who knows where they'll go with it. You know, it could be the next CEO of something that makes Microsoft look small. It could be someone who can now just concentrate on being a mum and love their children and change the stories that they, learned. I mean, there's no limit. I think that's really lovely. Yeah. And you're a bit more peaceful and a bit more...

Keely Woolley (30:42)
Mm. Mm. Yep. Right.

Hamish (30:47)
enjoying life a little bit more and able to walk your dog with a little bit more of bounce I guess as well.

Keely Woolley (30:53)
Yeah, yeah. think that, and I think you found this as well, is that as soon as you do stop and slow down and the noise in here stops, you're far more present. You you see the beauty around you. You hear the birds sing. You see, you know, the sheep that are in the field next door to you. You see the swans fly off. You know, I'm having a conversation with a dog, you know. I may, many people might think

raving mad, but I'm quite happy having a chat with them. But you know, being just being present, you know, in that space of calm and not racing towards an end goal. And yes, it is fantastic having a vision. It is important to have clarity of your journey and where you were going and how you're to get there. But, you know, for goodness sake, be present whilst you're doing it.

you know enjoy the here and now because you you don't know how long you've got you don't know when things will change you don't know when those opportunities might have to do you know a detour so just

Just slow down. Just enjoy it.

Hamish (32:05)
Yep, just like that, Especially on a lovely summer's daylight today. Yeah, sit outside in the sun like I am and just enjoy it. Yeah, I think it's so important.

Keely Woolley (32:17)
Yeah, yeah, definitely. And I think the other thing as well is, I think one of the biggest lessons that I've learned is that setting personal boundaries as well, you know, it's nice being able to help others, it's nice being able to serve others. But so often we get, especially if you've got that people, please, the mindset.

we fall into the traps of not certain personal boundaries and we're always saying yes to everybody else. And there's also this belief that if we don't say yes, then we might be judged, we might be seen as weak, we might be seen as not very nice. We're just being unkind and we're not respecting somebody else.

And the reality is that it's just so not true because when you start setting personal boundaries, when you do start saying no, as an eyesight therapist, you know it is a sentence, you can follow it with a thank you, but you don't have to justify why. Because we all feel that need to say, no, I can't because of blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And sometimes people wind up lying about it. You don't need to lie. It's just that no,

not right now, you know, so no, thank you, you know. And the amazing thing is, actually people respect you more for doing that. You you show off as a leader when you respect your boundaries and not only does it actually teach you and others to respect your boundaries, is it teaches them to respect their own. Lead by example. You know, there's so many lessons that we learn when we just slow down.

Hamish (34:04)
Yeah, that's really interesting that the people please in the codependency. It's got a darker side to it, which you've alluded to there. But why do we do it? Why is it so prevalent? I mean, it's not just women, men do it as well, but I know it is more of a female trait. Why is it such a unhealthy and toxic thing? I've got to be really careful with this because...

Yeah, why is it toxic and unhealthy, particularly the unhealthy bit?

Keely Woolley (34:34)
So first of all, why do we do it? mean, the starting point is it's programmed into us. And that's not intentionally, it's unintentionally and also meant with good intention in the sense that, you know, our parents, in our schools, our peers, our colleagues, you know, for our culture, you know, our religions, you know, it can be so many different

why we behave in that way, you know, that need to please. And some of it is, I mean, I know one of the reasons that I do is that I have this fear of confrontation. And fear of confrontation is that, you know, if everybody's happy, then everything's fine. If people aren't happy, there's unpredictability. So if you're in that state where

pleasing everybody, then you feel that everything is going to remain in that happy space and everything's going to be good and all those kind of things. You've then also got the fact that as a kid, you get these statements, you're happily playing with a toy and then another child perhaps takes it off of you and you want to take it back and they say, don't be unkind, let them have it, let them play with it. And it's like, Why aren't they corrected for?

you know, taking it off as someone in the first place, you know. There's also this situation where you feel the need to say yes, because if you say no, that you're not a very nice person. And that's not true. You know, if you're saying no all the time, you know, I get how someone will turn and say, you know, nice person, but and also the other thing is, is that you've got that side of

where you're always told, yes, and then also as cultures and in certain families, you've got these attitudes where the women should be waiting on the men, that they're there to serve men or serve even their brothers or their sisters because they're older, all of those kinds of things. they are literally that, they're programmed into us. And I think very hard to break some of these.

patterns that are programmed into us and until you see it and you're aware of it, you can't do anything about it. So it just becomes an instinct to act in that way. don't worry, I'll do it, you know, like, or, you know, it's fine, I'll sort it all out. You know, it's like, you know, I've got an event, I'll sort it out. You know, got an email to do, I'll sort it out. Got a phone call to do, I'll sort it out. know, cook a dinner

God knows how many people, yeah, I'll do it. It's that programmed behavior. And the reason why it then ends up being toxic, it's toxic on you because we cannot drink from an empty cup. And we need to have those times where we do practice self care and self love and self compassion and take time out for ourselves. Even with our children, you

constantly be there for their back and calls. So you do need to say times of it, do you know what? No, I'm having some hour, you know, an hour for myself to just go off, know, whether it's sit in my garden and be quiet, go and do some exercise, go and have a walk, you know, run a bath, you know, put some bubble bath in it, you know, if you want to drink some wine

You know, just I don't care what it is, you know, but I mean, I don't recommend that you do treat yourself to a glass of wine every single time that you need to. But it's just practicing some self care and self love for yourself. mean, my daughter, the best thing that she ever said to me, we was having a massage, she was a massage room therapist and I was having a massage. And one of the things I always used to do is

I mean, I traveled all the time and unfortunately my husband's got chronic back injury and fibromyalgia and my daughter's got fibromyalgia. And so I always wanted to come into the house, know, know, everything's fine, nothing to see here, you know, all energized because I didn't want to bring home my crat because obviously they've got enough going on in their lives. I used to sit in the car, I'd have a cry in the car and the driveway then come in with that, hey,

And she was doing me a massage one day and while she was massaging me, I just started crying and crying and crying and crying. And she was like, you know, why are you crying? And I explained what was going on. And she said...

Have you ever, has it ever occurred to you mum that you don't allow us, you don't give us permission to be able to ask if you're okay? You you don't give us permission to be able to support or help you because you always come across as super strong and unless you allow us, empower us, then we never know how to. my god. It's

gut a punch, know, gut punch and maybe realize that how selfish I was actually being because I wasn't actually empowering them to help me. And that's where that sort of toxic behaviour comes in for yourself, not necessarily for others but for yourself. But then, because you're tired, so you're exhausted, so stressed and anxious, then that will then have an icon on your

performance, the way in which you behave. You start being touchy with other people, you become impatient. You, you, as I say, you get resentful because they're not doing things. And, know, you make these assumptions that they actually know to help. And it's like, because we say, well, they should know. It's like, no, they don't know. Because you don't allow it. So that's how it then gravitates on you. So it

impacts in so many different ways.

Hamish (40:48)
You have just described my life in so many ways and thank you. It's an uncomfortable reminder of doing all of those things. Yes, I can do it. Yes, I can do it. You should know. I was, you know, they should have known and it's madness to think that if you don't tell people, don't ask, they're not going to know that you need help.

It is, isn't it? It's not being authentic. As you said, I might have to move. You're so busy people pleasing so you can keep it controlled, keep it safe, keep it all where you know what you need. You're disempowering people. I I used to disempower my ex -partners and things. And then I had to go through the processor. Why did I do that? And then beat myself up and then realizing that I just didn't know better.

and I had to stop, I had to consciously not beat myself up for that behaviour because I didn't know better and then make those changes. it's, yeah, I think it's interesting because when I mentioned that on social media about the unhealthy aspects of co -dependency, it's just like, no, I'm loving, I'm giving. It's delicate and I think you've described it so beautifully, so thank you for that

I know people listening will be going through the same thing as me looking at it and realising that, yeah, I did that. So how did you make sense of that realisation of like, wow, that is me and then mitigate the beating yourself up or the shaming yourself or the guilty for disempowering because that's like the next step, isn't it?

Keely Woolley (42:25)
Yeah, it's an interesting thing really. I think like anything, it's that when you're on this journey to discovery, do, especially if you've got that growth mindset, you read so many books, you listen to so many podcasts, you listen to anything associated with learning, really to just find, what is it that I'm doing

caused me to behave this way. I mean, one of them was, you know, the people, know, people pleading and trying to understand what was called people pleader. And it's trying to understand what was driving those sort of patterns of behavior. But also, think, you know, I mean, my husband actually, despite him being medically retired for so long, he practiced NLP. And of course, there's a lot

you know, books associated that that helps you to sort of start understanding some of the things that you're actually doing. And, you know, the biggest thing was this whole realization that, you know, external factors, they're always going to come in, it doesn't matter. In any walk of life, you will have external factors that come in. And for anybody that has practice or is aware of neuro linguistic programming, why not, they call it something so long beyond me, but there you go.

But when you start studying that and you realize that you do sort of generalize, filter, you delete, and all of these different things, you realize that whatever those external factors are, the only person that can change the way in which you, and I say, react or respond to it, is yourself.

So the only way that you can understand what's causing you to behave in that way is be able to create awareness of some of your behaviors, the way in which you're behaving on a day -to -day basis. So you can start asking yourself questions about, why did I do that? When my stress levels start going up and getting elevated, when I snapped up my loving son, but as a way

been able to elevate my responses quite quickly. Why was I in this specific event, feeling like this? When you start asking those questions, the more questions you ask yourself, then the more you start understanding yourself and where it's coming from, why you did that, the decisions and the connections.

So then you can then start thinking about, what can I do differently? How can I reframe the way in which I reacted and be able to take that step back? that's where this being able to stop and slow down and breathe and take time to sort of think about, well, okay, how can I respond to this differently? And sometimes it, you know, in the moment it's hard.

But if you can sort of take a step back afterwards and go, right, okay, well, if this happens again, I know it's going to happen again with certain individuals, it's definitely going to happen. So how can I respond to them in a controlled way? So you're taking about 100 % control of that situation. You know, even the worst thing that we often do is that people fear conflict. And the reality is, is that when you avoid it, you're actually not in a win situation.

you're always in a lose situation. And yes, there are times when you can turn around and say, actually, this is getting out of control. It's not certain either. So now we both need to take a step back to take time out to think about it. And then when you come back later on, you come back in a more controlled manner anyway. So you've had time to reflect on what they've said. You've had time to reflect on what you said. Then you're able to come back in that space of control and

you show up as a leader in those situations, not just as a leader in a work environment, but within your family and your friends, you know, someone that people will follow rather than that individual that's always in the emotional, as I call it, the emotional monkey. And not just as an emotional monkey, you know, that person that the ego takes over or you start

you know, second guessing what somebody else is saying, you you start becoming as that one that's always draining the room. When you have more control over what it is you're saying and understanding where it comes from and the control is back there, then you then show up in a way where you are more controlled. People want to follow you, you know, you've got more structure, more clarity, more focus, you know, so many things. So there's so many things that you can do. But that awareness is the key thing, isn't it?

Hamish (47:34)
I'd say it's hard to find that awareness when we're so busy rushing around, being busy doing, being human doings, running around, fixing, saving, rescuing, making money. And yeah, not looking after ourselves, as he said, not slowing down, not taking the dog for a walk and having a chat with it when you get

We've got it all wrong somewhere, haven't we? Somewhere... I got a t -shirt. Somewhere something has gone terribly wrong. I'm not wearing it today, obviously, but I think I should wear that more often because somewhere something went terribly wrong.

Keely Woolley (48:05)
You know, taking that point, I mean, I think in schools, there are three things that should be taught in schools, just as part of the curriculum, and it would save so much stress, anxiety and burnout, not just as, you know, adults, but in schools as well. It would help us and kids to have much healthier.

lives, you know, instead of having all of that anxiety and anger that's built up. And one of them, I believe, is emotional freedom technique, which for anybody that doesn't know, it's effectively like tapping, which is on the meridians of, you know, the same sort of locations that you've got your for acupuncture, you know, the tapping points. And it teaches you to be able to process things in a healthier way, you know, bring your stresses down.

there is no risk to it, anybody can learn it no matter what age they are so it's really good for helping them from that side of it. The other thing is it's actually learning to breathe properly. You know so often we're told to breathe and pull in our belly rather than really if you're breathing properly and you're breathing into your belly and your belly is ballooning and you're learning to actually

You know, it helps you to de -stress in those moments which helps you to get more clarity. Learning, you know, as I say, to manage conflict in a constructive way rather than a destructive way. So you're having healthy conversations, you know, just doing those three things. And finally, it's learning that it is okay to say no and you can set healthy boundaries.

And those four, and I don't know, said three first of all, but I think those four things, I think it would help. Can you imagine what schools would be

Hamish (49:58)
Yeah. I love that. Those four are so important, aren't they? And the breathing one, as you did that, I suddenly realised, yeah, I'm sitting straight, tummy in, it's just like, now I breathe, it's like, yeah, it's all there, but it's comfortable. Shoulders sag, just relax, breathe. Yeah. And just calm down and get more present again. Who knows? I know we've got a mutual friend who

works with kids. So maybe she can implement that kind of stuff into those schools or into the classes and things that she does.

Keely Woolley (50:32)
be absolutely brilliant if schools could do that, know, part of their practice. And I think it would be not only great in schools, it would be great for parenting, it would be great in the workplace, it would have so many different benefits that it could have by introducing those, you know, four simple strategies. Yeah, life would be so much easier, wouldn't

Hamish (50:58)
And then we'd find something else to complicate it. But that's part of being human. We get to a level, we learn something and then there's the next thing to learn. And then there's the next thing to learn. I think it's remarkable. I do think my generation, it was very, very different to the current kids and things like that. There's much more authenticity rather than this attachment,

Keely Woolley (51:08)
Yeah,

Hamish (51:23)
need things like that, but it makes it more difficult because they're perceived as unruly and not paying attention and things, but really they're just being truer to themselves. So they've got their own journeys to make sense of as well.

Keely Woolley (51:38)
And it's interesting that you say that because I mean, one of the key parts of my program, the freedom transformation formula, which I love, is about helping people to rediscover their why. Because one of the biggest things that I've discovered is that, you know, particularly what we're up to now, as the generation said, I lose track of all of them now. you know, working backward from the millennials, they are

very much focus within organizations and business on focusing on the purpose, know, being connected to their values and their beliefs, because unless they're aligned, that's when it becomes unbalanced. And that's where some of the behaviors kick in and the frustrations and feeling like it's Groundhog Day and just like life's on repeat, you know, that cycle. And, you know, so often they'll just leave an organization.

they will walk, you know, they're there maybe for a year, two years, you know, whereas, like I said, I was there for 23 years. Now half of my organization, particularly my age group and upwards, you know, they've been there, it's almost like they've been born on the end of a paper machine. And then they was there forever, you know, and so often with organizations, that's what actually happened. But now with, you know, youngsters, they are fit with their feet, they're not happy.

And they don't like what the environment is. They don't feel they've got a purpose. They don't feel it's connected to their values. They go, I'm leaving. I just don't want to be here anymore. And they do it. So the question we have to ask any leader, doesn't matter what type of business it is, how are you going to keep the next generations

Because if you don't, you do not change your behavior, if you do not nurture your teams, if you don't give them any values, if you don't empower them, if you don't motivate them, you're not going to be able to keep your business. That's the fact. That is what will happen because they're not going to accept it. They're not accepting it. And you know what, Hamish? Since COVID, with people in our age group and above, and maybe younger, probably in the sort of mid -forties,

Where they had not had to, where they were put in a situation where they spent time at home and they could spend time with their families and start spending time with their fans and start being present, even more so they've gone enough is enough, I'm not accepting this anymore. So they're leaving and thinking of their fate. There are more businesses, entrepreneurs that have actually been generated since COVID than there's ever been. And actually,

There's more women as well. So it's almost doubled, or in fact I think, troubled, the amount of women that have gone into business on their own and said, I'm not doing this anymore, that I'm done.

Hamish (54:44)
I think that's wonderful. You work in this sphere, you see this all the time, do

Keely Woolley (54:49)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, most definitely. mean, even with, you know, I I think I mentioned that I'm part of the Speaker Academy. And so one of the things I do is coach people in how to present on the stage and create their own frameworks. And quite often, there is a line share of that audience, ex -corporates that have said, I'm done, I've had enough, I don't want this anymore. So, you know, they're thinking with their feet.

and they're taking up opportunities to actually create their own businesses and do what they love. And being a part of that, being able to actually help them to discover what it is they truly love, because after all, we only have one life. as I say, be more dragonfly, live life with passion, purpose, joy, and most of all, for the fall. and what better way to do it?

We have one crack of the whip, don't we, Hamish? Let's enjoy it.

Hamish (55:47)
Yep. Absolutely. I think that's lovely. I love the fact that you've gained all that experience in that arena that you walked from. Okay, well, you left and you're helping people to go back to that arena, but with boundaries and self -pride and self -respect. And that's just so empowering, isn't it? I mean, that must...

That must get you up at five o 'clock in the morning and sometimes get you to bed at half past 11 at night because it's like, I'm having fun. And when you have fun, you're energized and you're empowered.

Keely Woolley (56:24)
Yeah, I mean, you know how it is. It is tough being an entrepreneur, in fact, but when you've actually found your passion, what it is that drives you every single day, and it does motivate you, it's like you're in a compass. And, you know, even on the toughest day, you still feel motivated, you still feel energized, you still say, can do this. And that's the thing that keeps you going.

with adversity and resilience and consistency. But the important thing that I do encourage, I truly encourage is that no matter what happens, even as an entrepreneur or a business owner or a leader is that you do need to remember to stop, slow down, take time out. Because if you do do that, you

to half past 11 every single night. If you do get up at five o 'clock every single morning, there's only so long that you can keep that up. So you still need to be mindful of yourself and be aware of what your daily life is looking at and ask yourself, why am I working till late at night? Because you can keep on sort of doing the do, do, do, do, do.

but it's not going to be serving you a long time and you're not going to be able to sustain it no matter how motivated and energized you are.

Hamish (57:54)
Yeah, yeah too much doo doo doo you'll be in the doo doo doo, won't you?

Keely Woolley (58:00)
Yes, indeed. Yes, start being a human being and also remember that human connection is absolutely fundamental with it as well. So if you get locked away in your room all of the time and not actually connecting with others, that's not serving you either.

Hamish (58:16)
Brilliant. Keely, this has been fabulous. Thank you. I think you've shared some real gems and some insight and you've dared to tell people your story of breaking down. And thank you for that because there's a lot of embarrassment. There's a lot of, you know, I couldn't do that. I wouldn't want that. It just be my idea of absolute hell. But you've owned it. And you said that allowed you to make sense of everything that you've

brought with you, you've looked back and thought, I learned how to do this, this and this and this. I also learned how to look after myself and now you're empowering others. think that is really genuinely wonderful and I really wish you all the best for that. So thank you.

Keely Woolley (58:59)
My pleasure. And yeah, thank you for allowing me space to be on here. I've really enjoyed it and I've loved your questions. And this is for everybody that's listening. If you want to take a personal boundaries quiz, Hamish will be sharing it in the link, I'll be sharing it others. And it's an opportunity for you to just evaluate.

whether you are setting personal boundaries or maybe that little people pleaser is slipping in. it's a great opportunity to just assess where you're at right now.

Hamish (59:34)
Brilliant, well we will definitely put that in the show notes. So where can people find that and where can people find out more about you, Keely?

Keely Woolley (59:41)
So obviously I'll share the personal boundaries quiz with you. But equally, I'm everywhere, should I say. So I'm on LinkedIn as Keely Woolley and also on Facebook. I also have a podcast called Let's Thrive and Shine Beyond Belief, because at end of day, we're all limitless, aren't we, Hamish? So it's only that little pearl in our head that stops us.

and on Instagram and TikTok and X otherwise known as Twitter. Why it was ever changed to X is beyond me but it'll be as meta more with no E for success so as you can imagine always associated to the dragonfly.

Hamish (1:00:32)
Yeah, I think your logo is beautiful and I love the dragonfly. It's so elegant. Yeah. Fabulous. Thank you. And then one last question. I think I know the answer to this, but what did you learn from your awakening and making sense of how you had to change?

Keely Woolley (1:00:37)
Yeah.

Stop. Slow down. Be present. Enjoy the moment. And most of all, live a happy, very fulfilling life.

Hamish (1:01:04)
Brilliant. Yep. Absolutely resonate. think that is fantastic. Thank you ever so much, Keely. That was really, really super. Thank you for your time.

Keely Woolley (1:01:12)
And thank you.

Hamish Niven (1:01:13)
Thank you for listening to this episode of The Crucible: Conversations for the Curious. If these powerful stories of transformation resonated with you, be sure to like, subscribe and share this show with anyone who you think could do with a dose of inspiration for their own journey. I would really appreciate it if you could make any comments on your favourite podcast platform as well, that helps me reach more people. All the important links and information are in the show notes below. Thank you very much for listening and catch up with you soon.