The Crucible:Conversations for the Curious

Hamish Niven (00:01)
Welcome to The Crucible, Conversations for the Curious. I am Hamish, your host. This podcast is for anyone going through awakenings, trying to make sense of life. Whether dark nights are the soul, needing to make life -changing decisions, struggling with addiction or critical illness, or simply realizing that their life as they know it is not aligned to values and purpose. You are not alone. You can get through this, promise you. Life is far more beautiful on the other side.

Hamish (00:29)
Hello everybody and welcome to another episode of the Crucible conversations for the curious. Today I'm chatting with Eleanor and she's got quite a story. Eleanor thank you very much for being here today. Can you tell me please about the demons inside of your head?

Eleanor (00:44)
Hi Hamish, thank you for having me. I really appreciate you giving me the time and space to discuss this. So yeah, so I've had a lot of intrusive thoughts over my lifespan. It started about around the age of seven when to have certain thoughts such as wanting to stab your, well not wanting to, let me rephrase that.

such as being scared of stabbing your parents in the night was not something that you think as a child you'd have to deal with. So around the age of seven, every single night time, I used to be scared to go to bed because of the fear of me stabbing my parents. And it took a long, long time for me to really understand what that was.

I used to cry, I didn't used to want to go to bed and I couldn't tell my parents because of course if you tell your parents that, I mean, what's gonna happen? So as a child I was thinking, well why am I having these thoughts, you know, and it was strange because I knew they were separate from me. But I did identify by them. And I remember sitting underneath table and I said to my mom, I've got the demon inside my head.

And I, for some reason, associated this with eating cheese, like cheese biscuits, because I stopped eating them and then they went and I was like, my gosh, they've gone. Like I was so excited because I was free from my mind. And then it sort of latched onto obsessive thoughts about crumbs on the car seat. And then it went into germs and being scared to touch people.

and things like that. at this time I was diagnosed with ADHD, which this can also be misdiagnosed as OCD as well. So it can work together or it can be separate and misdiagnosed, which I've read upon. So yeah, around that time I was diagnosed with ADHD and it was a really tough time from what I can remember. So as time went on, I was

going through the physical OCD, which was the excessive hand washing and not wanting to touch anything. Which continued, it would get worse and better throughout life until I had children. So I didn't have the harm OCD thoughts, which is called Pure O, now I know.

until I had children again. Again. Until I had children. So I had my first daughter and for any of those who have children understand like this a very deep love. It's something that you really can't explain and I was so protective and obsessed about keeping her protected that when the thoughts came back of I could just stab her or my gosh like

I'm going to drop her over the side. We'd be in the shopping mall and I'd have this like really strong intrusive thought of just dropping her over the side. And almost it came with that much anxiety and adrenaline, but it was like, almost felt as though you could, even though you're so scared of it. So you just want, I just didn't want to leave the house. You know, I was just absolutely petrified of myself. This continued and I then had another, I had another child when there's about

a year and three months between them, fairly close together. And I went on medication to try and help with these intrusive thoughts because at this point I felt suicidal. I did not want to be around. It was to the point where I'd go to work and then I would try and avoid coming home because I'd be scared that I would feel so fearful of harming my own children. And I think that

One of these issues is on why people don't talk about this is because the amount of shame held in having those thoughts and the fact that people don't realize it's not that I ever wanted to do anything. It was that I was so terribly fearful of doing something like that, that it felt like I was out of control. Then the OCD and obsessiveness within me, if that's the word, obsessiveness within me.

became so identified with those thoughts and so curious and obsessed by them and thinking why am I thinking these things? But it's not me, it's not my mind. But it is my mind and it was just very, very confusing. So I took this medication, it made it worse. Some medication works for some and some doesn't. In this instance, it was certainly for me.

It just didn't work with me, it made it worse. So I came off that and just tried to battle it myself. I brought myself a book on understanding cognitive behavioral therapy and obsession with thoughts, which with the ADHD element of it, I just feel like I couldn't even tackle that book. You know, it just wasn't something that I could even touch or look at. It just became overwhelming. So.

As time went on, I ended up having another child. These thoughts, they came and they would come and go. I would sing nursery rhymes in my head to try and escape from them, which is why it's classed as pure O because there's not a physical compulsion to escape from the thoughts. It's all mental. So it will be things like playing a song in your head or trying to seek reassurance from someone else or

or obsessing by researching. So I used to research a lot on psychosis and psychopaths and murder stories. I was obsessed with crime because I was trying to reassure myself that I wasn't this bad person. But there was nothing in my life that was showing me that I actually was.

Hamish (07:07)
you

Eleanor (07:25)
You know, there was no proof and evidence that I was this person that I thought I was. It was just all in my head. Yeah, so I'm just trying to remember now where I got up to. was like, whee! Like, where did I get up to? Yeah, so, yeah. So as time on, I then went on to have my third child. I mean, despite the thoughts, I still wanted a big family. It was that.

I know what I want but my mind is like so scared of having that because of the struggle and the suffering that I was going through. So I tried another medication called venlaflaxine which did help but when coming off it, wasn't very nice, it wasn't very helpful. It didn't have great withdrawal symptoms for me personally. So after I had my children, I've now got five and I don't have any of these intrusive thoughts anymore.

And this is because I spent a lot of time knowing who I am. And I think that when we have these thoughts, take, and especially if you're quite obsessive, you identify with them. So I thought it was me. I honestly thought, my gosh, like, and even now, if I tell someone about it, I've had people say, you need to seek God. Like, that is weird. Like I've never had anything like that. And that's okay. But the people that have had this

had these thoughts, I think it's important to recognise that it's not you, your mind is not you. And that to disidentify from the mind is freedom. And to be able to make choice about what you feed your mind as well. Like, you you'll get these random thoughts that come and go, but what are you intentionally telling yourself? Are you correcting your mind and or are you laughing at it? Because I went through a phase of

actually just laughing at the thoughts. And then it's almost strange because it's like, your thoughts are separate from you. And I think that's where the of the spiritual awakening came in, because I realized, okay, if I'm not my mind, and my mind's almost separate, but I'm like a conscious, this conscious entity, observing it, then what actually am I? You know, I think, you know, we're all bigger than actually we think we are.

So I spent a lot of time journaling, really connecting deeply with myself and understanding vibrational frequencies and how to use that to manifest abundance. But in terms of actually being able to transcend this struggle, it was really making note of who I am.

And yeah, within the struggle of intrusive thoughts, it is a case of you lose your whole identity and start to identify with what it is that your mind tells you.

Yeah, you go.

Hamish (10:39)
That is, that is, that is fascinating. mean, it's, it's horrifying. I can relate occasionally when I get crossed with someone, I wish you were dead. But I don't think that's the same. swear that I'm probably not the same. But that's, it's like, I don't mean that. But I guess that's, I don't know. that's

Eleanor (10:46)
Mm. Yeah.

Well, it is and it isn't, but see, that's triggering in itself because when you have the OCD puro thoughts and you're scared of them and then you get mad and you have a similar thought and it's like, actually, I really could just punch you in the face. It's like, well, how do you differentiate between the two? And yeah, it is slightly different, but yeah, it is also relatable. So I appreciate you sharing.

Hamish (11:11)
Hmm.

Yeah.

Can you you know, you said as a child, you said there's demons in your head. How did how was that received by your family? What did they try and make of that?

Eleanor (11:40)
Nothing really. There was just, I mean, I don't ever remember any attempt to understand what that was. I mean, I was a very troubled teenager and I think sometimes we don't spend enough time with our children to really understand and feel into what it is that's going on inside their mind.

So yeah, didn't have any of, don't think I had any of that support. I was really alone. And I think that's why as an adult, then you think, okay, my safe space used to be sitting in dark corners, like I would when I was a child, because that was where, I mean, I couldn't escape my mind, but it felt the safest place, Yeah.

Hamish (12:10)
Yeah.

Eleanor (12:30)
Which is sad really. Because I think a lot of people, a lot of children, must go through it. But I always say to my children, like, there's no thought, no dream, anything that will scare me. Like, I'm here to protect you. And I think they need to hear that.

Hamish (12:42)
I'm, I'm really curious though. So how, how did you sort of work out that this was not chatter, is it this noise, you know, I could just stab my parents. How did you manage to work out that it was, it was not you? Cause that's

I would have thought that would be quite tough.

Eleanor (13:03)
As a child, yeah, because you don't really understand the world in any other way of like that single perception. I suppose apart from empathy when we can feel other people's emotions, et cetera, but really it was the fact that I knew that I didn't want to. I could feel that, you know, the fear of almost feeling like you're pressured to do something you don't want to do. And that didn't sit right in me.

Hamish (13:12)
Hmm.

Eleanor (13:33)
If I know that I don't want to do something, then why is my mind telling me that I could or I should? So yeah, think that was the big thing. The biggest part of the intrusive thought, in fact, is that differentiation between the two. Because of course there is mental disorders where it may be a slightly different mixture of things. But for me personally,

Yeah, it was very debilitating.

Hamish (14:07)
So you were able to trust your heart rather than your head. You trusting your feelings.

Eleanor (14:12)
Mm.

Yes, but you can't, when you try and escape your mind, the more it pulls you back in.

As a child you don't know how to, unless you're taught it's hard to understand how to ground yourself back into your body.

Hamish (14:28)
I think that's, yeah, I said it, just horrifying. it leads onto so many things. I mean, what you said about, you you are not your thoughts. know, that ability to realize that you're not, they're just stuff going through, your emotions are just stuff going through. How did you manage to refine that? you you had that as a...

a break for the noise, a break for that ideation or as you said, those unwelcome thoughts.

Eleanor (14:57)
I think it's having a structure. So it's what is it that you want to feel? Who are you? What are you affirming to yourself? Because I mean, within all the spiritual type, all these sort of spiritual chit chat and things like that, if we think about it from a perspective of we can manifest anything that we want and everything that you think about, you can bring it into reality.

You are what you think about, you are what you talk. To a person that's having these intrusive thoughts, that is so scary. It almost would be like, my gosh, that means that it's gonna happen.

Hamish (15:38)
hell am I going to do? You've got even... Yeah.

Eleanor (15:39)
but does it align with your heart and your soul and your body? And that is the difference between the two. You know, so if your mind is not aligned with everything else, your mind doesn't mean anything. And that's the whole point when it comes to visualization and manifesting things, why it's so important to feel it within so deeply and in meditation and you can just feel it in every cell because without that,

It's just pure thought, you know, I think there's more, there's a lot of importance given to thoughts than there should be. But also it is also important. I think it's, is it thoughts though, or is it imagination?

Hamish (16:23)
Now that's a good question, isn't it? I think we can look at that in more detail because, you know...

Eleanor (16:24)
Yeah. So is it imagination that's the manifester? Because that's beautiful, you know, really, most of the time.

Hamish (16:37)
I like that. I really like that. That feels lovely because that is you, know, as kids we're taught, we're encouraged to use our imagination. You get to adulthood, you know, a piece of paper, do this, do that imagination. It's not welcome. But when we use it, that's where the magic is, isn't it? I like that. Well, that is the essence of visualization though, isn't it? You know, are imagining, you're not thinking, you're imagining.

Eleanor (16:55)
Mmm, it is, yeah.

Hamish (17:06)
what you want, imagining going up the steps, doing a walk somewhere beautiful, you're imagining what you want to create. You're creating it in your mind, in your imagination.

Eleanor (17:16)
So I think that when you've got these thoughts and it pulls you back in, so it's like, I've not had them today. And you almost go digging for them because you're addicted to the emotion that the thought gives you. So.

It's like, hang on, your body just doesn't feel right without that level of anxiety. So you can't even sit in peace and bliss because you're still trying to search for the problem. So it's really getting to that point of saying, I'm ready. I'm ready to let go of everything that this made me out to be. This invisible entity within my mind is not me.

and to start to peel away everything that it's made you become and to start to really understand that your core of who you truly are because when you've got that solidity in your identity it's unshakable especially when you've been through that because it's yeah debilitating absolutely I don't want everybody else to know that too you know because everybody's precious in every single way so

Hamish (18:27)
think what you've articulated there is spot on. It's dangerous to identify as a plumber, as a mum, as a dad, as a this, as a that, especially as things change. if you actually, as you got that chatter the whole time saying that, maybe it's a lesson. It is a demon saying, hey, time for you not to identify with my noise. Become that authentic person because what you're saying is really profound.

and really important, not just for these intrusive thoughts, but for life in general. And I think it's fascinating, it's a horrifying way to have to learn a lesson, but I think it's fascinating that you've managed to make sense of it and you're happy to share it because yeah, it does seem, you know, I want to kill my mummy. I think I want to.

Eleanor (19:18)
Yeah, like what on earth? You tell someone to that, they'd be like, okay, can we just get this person some help and think that it's something to be scared from? But actually in those moments, it's really listening. I told my friend about it once. It was just a random topic because I'll speak about it like it's a standard topic because it should be. I mean, how can we support each other if we can't be honest with each other, you know?

Hamish (19:21)
Thanks.

Eleanor (19:47)
So I told her and she was like, my gosh, I have been trapped in the same thoughts. I don't even want to touch knives. I can't even talk. I can't even have knives near me because it scares me so much. And I'm like, yeah, okay. You have to hide away the knives. Another thing that really helped actually, I probably should have written a list of other things, but was they being able to be around things that make you feel uncomfortable. So.

If you're having a thought, an intrusive thought and you're scared of knives, because that's ultimately what it is. I was fearful of stabbing my parents, so anything that was knife related would trigger it even worse. So I couldn't look at them. So if you were to be in that space, you sit with a knife right in front of you, you breathe into it, and it's called exposure and response prevention.

I think, don't hold me to it, but when I did some CBT. So being able to be in the presence and breathe into it and release their anxiety on a repetitive basis now means I have no problems, absolutely no problems with knives. There's not one thought that even comes through my mind because it just isn't necessary anymore. And I'm not in survival anymore. yeah, so she, so she related and

Hamish (20:45)
Thank

Eleanor (21:14)
The fact that I was able to help her just by understanding her and listening means that she's now doesn't live in that fear anymore. Just having that conversation can literally release people from that trap. And it has nothing to do with reassurance or anything that perpetuates the cycle of

of puro or OCD and it has everything to do with the fact that it's almost like someone saying you don't need to be fearful of your mind anymore. And it's like, I don't know, I don't know, it's a chemical energy thing that happens. But yeah, it's really helped her. So I think it just shows the power in understanding each other.

Hamish (22:05)
Absolutely. is, isn't it? It's that power of communication and, you know, asking for help and that's when the magic happens. And, you know, the shame thing, I had a lot of shame with the drinking. And, you know, when you talk about it, it disappears. It is like throwing windows open. Yeah, I'm still wrapping my head around that and it's...

You said you've had to put those structures into, it's almost like if this, then that, if this, then that, isn't it? You've almost got to hold some steps to sort of work, well, I mean, that's the basis of CBT, isn't it? It is cause and effect, find steps to work through things.

Eleanor (22:41)
Hmm. Yeah. I mean, if I go through sort of a few of the things that in fact, I'll go through all of the things that help me. So I have already discussed about the disidentification with the mind and being able to know who you are is really crucial to be able to move forward in the most healthy and effective way. CBT. So

Even though I've done a lot of research when I actually attended CBT, I waited two years. By the time I went to CBT, I sort of knew all of what she was teaching me. But it's easy to read things and not practice it. It's easy to watch things and not practice it. So it is typical, isn't it really, that we don't often practice what is healthy for us. So the moment that I actually started to breathe in and just...

Hamish (23:20)
Thank

Eleanor (23:34)
You're not needed anymore. This thought is not needed anymore. I know who I am. You know, it's a... So really the CBT is the passing of the thought without sort of needing to latch onto that and it's allowing it to move freely through your mind. But when these thoughts make you feel like an immediate sense of panic,

and survival and letting them go is really, really hard, which is why weather breathing techniques come in really helpful. And of course, the other thing I mentioned as well was about the exposure to what it is that you're most fearful of and realizing even though there may be, it's all based on choice, these types of thoughts, but whereas for physical OBD, it's like, for me sometimes,

If it's the trigger of germs, I can see the germs. Then I can't see the germs, but I can see the germs, you know? Like I'm scared of that even though can't see it. So yeah, I mean, it's all a process with that. I'm just trying to think if there's anything else that would be valuable.

because they are definitely the most crucial parts. mean, there's lots of different things that happens which might help. So like when I mentioned about the obsession with research, so that was one thing that really perpetuated that cycle further and made it worse. It was me reaching out to my mom or my friends and being like,

do you think I've got this wrong with me? Or do you think like, I wouldn't say it directly because I couldn't, I didn't feel like I could, but it's like, I think I'm a psychopath, you know? Or like just think, just these things, you know? And, and then once I've got that reassurance, it's like, okay, fine, okay, I'm okay until the next time. So these things aren't helpful because the moment that you ground yourself in you know who you are, you don't have to seek that anymore. So yeah.

Hamish (25:28)
Thank you.

Eleanor (25:47)
you

Hamish (25:48)
I think you've nailed an awful lot there. And the scary thing is that being addicted to your thoughts, being addicted to that anxiety, because you're familiar to it, aren't you? You know it. You know it's not safe, but you know how to interact within that little space.

Eleanor (26:06)
But isn't it strange how anxiety, you think it keeps you safe. So you want to stay there because in that moment, you're in so much survival. If you're a fighter or a flighter, it's a way of escaping. So it's like, if you don't have that, you think automatically that you're going to act on things in the wrong way. Like if I don't feel fearful of what I'm thinking,

then that means that I want to do it. That was the other cycle of thought. So anxiety was almost a way of being able to know I don't want that to happen. So it's a mad cycle. mean, yeah, it really is.

Hamish (26:53)
It really is, isn't it? You've got damned if you do, damned if you don't, and then maybe you're damned anyway, and all you said you've to do, you've just got to disidentify with it. How do you do that? Because that obviously is the crust. That is the crux, isn't it? So let's dive into that a little bit more, because I think that is quite important.

Eleanor (27:05)
Just... Yeah.

So, disidentifying with it. I mean, to be honest, it's sort of covering what I've already mentioned about, one, knowing who you are, and then, two, knowing that you're not your mind. I mean, if you know both of those things, then you're on the way to disidentifying with it. Being the observer of the mind, it can become a lot easier with meditation. Meditation is not a quick fix. It's a...

It's a disciplined, continual, it's okay on days where you feel tired and you don't want to do it, on the days where you fall asleep in the meditation, you still do it the next day, you know? And then eventually you can slow down and just listen to it from a consciousness rather than an identification. It's like you want me but I can hear you. So.

But it's something that really has to be experienced to be able to understand that. So it's taken those first steps to... And I think a lot of us don't know who we are as well. We're just really a product of our society and environment and what people tell us and traumas. So it's really... It's deep.

It's really remembering who we are, which often comes in childhood.

Hamish (28:44)
How do you find out who you are? What's the quick way to find out who you are?

Eleanor (28:52)
Well, is there, probably stop listening to everybody else, spend time alone.

And that's not loneliness. There's loneliness and it's like, need someone because you feel like you need support and then there's alone. I love my own time. I love my own space. And people that don't really know who they are struggle to know what to do in alone time. But whereas I found I was that person. It's okay. Okay, I'm in silence. What do I do now? There's nothing to do. But actually, when I understood myself, I love art. I learned to

play the guitar. ADHD didn't stick to the guitar for long. I mean, I do still have it, but it's the fun of it. It's the playfulness of being childlike. That's why I always go back to childhood because I think I always used to love doing that stuff as a kid. And when you get to an adult, it's all bills and having to, you know, just like society and the way the world is and things like that. So being able to disconnect is good.

So I would say that.

Hamish (30:05)
I think you've really nailed it because that was one of the reasons I was drinking because society's expectations, society's demands, family expectations, ancestral expectations, know, do this, be a good boy, be a good son, don't do this, do that, don't do that. You know, we get, as you said, we get piled up by all this stuff and it's not making us authentic. yeah, to find yourself.

Eleanor (30:30)
And I think it's, you know, with alcohol, it's a way of escaping the situation, isn't it?

Hamish (30:36)
That's exactly what it was for that. That was spitting it apart, can't say the word. Whereas I had to bring those two pieces together to find out who I was, to say I don't want that part of society. I don't want that part. So I had to find myself, because I lost myself not with voices, I lost it with the alcohol. But the outcome is, you you have had to find a way to find out who you are.

Eleanor (30:56)
Yeah.

Hamish (31:05)
so you could then go not interested. And I've had to do the same in my way for my thing. So I think it is, isn't it? is to just start trusting yourself and believing in yourself and loving yourself. You said that earlier as well.

Eleanor (31:20)
Yeah, I mean, I suppose the thing is as well is that, I mean, in between all of these things is that however the shame and the thoughts make you feel, has a direct impact on your beliefs about yourself. So this, didn't really discover all of this until, I mean, years after, I mean, you're talking probably 15 years after the first sort of episode.

And in between those times I was caught up with people that weren't good for me on plenty of occasions. I didn't take much seriously. was very much... I had a lot of low self -esteem because I didn't feel like I was worthy. So, you you unpeel another layer of like, okay, this shame that these thoughts have given me is like, made me feel like I'm not worthy of goodness.

you know, because why should I have all of these nice things if, or be having fun or have nice friends if I'm this person that I feel like it made me to be? So it's not just a simple linear journey. It's all of the rest outside of that as well. So, but it's nice to start somewhere.

Hamish (32:43)
You have to start somewhere, don't you? yeah, think what I'm also hearing is you have to learn to be really gentle with yourself and not judge yourself for those thoughts, not judge yourself for those... Because you said that they're not you, but they're just sort of, well, in here somewhere or whatever.

Eleanor (32:54)
yeah.

Yeah, and I think as well it's interesting because I think a lot of it's about how you're parented because your inner parent will be the voice that you speak to yourself in oftentimes. So it's how does that sound? I just think it's very important that we treat ourselves gently and kindly. And I think there's some things where we can be our inner motivator and be like, come on, we can do this, you know?

Hamish (33:13)
Hmm.

Eleanor (33:32)
But then there's sometimes it's like, it's okay. Like it's okay to hug yourself. It's okay to just give yourself that time in any situation. Don't ever feel pressured by anybody outside society and anything, you know, especially when you're overcoming things like this, because it really does mess up your nervous system, you know, a lot.

I can talk for days.

Hamish (33:56)
I know, I'm thinking it's absolutely fascinating. There's so many parallels from other conversations I've had with other people about other things. So we've got someone listening to us, for example, and they're having this and they've met it and they don't know what to do and they have listened to you and you've said, know yourself and do this and do this. And obviously it's not that quick. What sort of things can you say to people to say, right, how to...

how to start trusting yourself, how to start beginning to know yourself, how to disidentify from it, because I think those are the key things, aren't they, where you can start going from.

Eleanor (34:34)
Hmm, so I mean it really does depend on the type of person so like if So for me I can only really speak for myself from from what I've figured out Which is that? Okay, rather than choosing something that I know isn't gonna benefit me such as Going out for a drink with my friends, which I do a lot. I don't but just an example

at the time, I'm going to choose to stay at home today and I'm going to choose to write down the thoughts that I've had that have bothered me today and then I'm going to decide that I'm going to write down who I am. Is there any evidence of anything?

that would suggest that that's who I am. I think then dealing with it first of all from a logical perspective and start writing things down. Maybe if you don't like to deal with things in a way of writing down or just can't really, that's not for you. There are of course ways where it's a case of just.

sort of, I suppose, thinking about it in your mind rather than putting it on paper. Paper's always sort of worked for me, but it's taken me some time to get there. Yeah, I'd say that's a good start point.

Hamish (36:13)
That makes a lot of sense, it? Because you are, I mean, I like the idea of writing it down. I write a lot and I think that's good because, I thought this, I thought that, I thought this. Is it true? Yes, no. Who am I? You're seeing it. You're not just thinking about it. You're seeing it. I guess you could record it as well, couldn't you, if you weren't into it?

Eleanor (36:33)
Yes, yeah, a voice note type thing.

Hamish (36:38)
And by doing that, you're separating yourself from it, you? As you said earlier, you'll be in the observer, you're looking down at it. And I guess that's the key, isn't it? Just to observe yourself, because I mean, you've mentioned that so many times in this conversation, observe, observe, which means slowing down and as you said, meditating and breathing and slowing down.

Eleanor (36:55)
Yeah.

I mean there's other things as well, so I do poetry, I'll write a lot, so also dancing, movement, there's a lot of emotions that come up, so I mean it's not even just with obsessive thoughts, it's just life in general, so dancing for me when I'm upset is a massive thing that's helped, and I know that it's tricky when there's some people around, it depends how much you care about who sees and who doesn't.

Hamish (37:30)
Dance like no one's listening,

Eleanor (37:32)
Absolutely, absolutely. But yeah, poetry has really been helpful. find that in sadness, I can go into flow and it just all sort of just and then you can observe then once you're in a better place, you can then look back at that and see, okay, I can see here that I feel like I'm alone in this situation. How can I make myself feel better? What can I give myself that means that I don't need to feel that way anymore? So

I mean that's just another thing as well because when going through this process there's other things that come up other emotions that we haven't dealt with so it can be helpful and a cup of tea for me yes

Hamish (38:18)
can't be a cup of tea. I like that. it's, it's, you're also reconnecting to your body, aren't you? Because I'm really, I'm really sensing there is, there has been a massive disconnect somewhere and you're, you're reconnecting. mean, I'm doing the same thing in my, in my process as I, as I work through life, but reconnecting to feel, you said you, you dance, you're having that, that somatic movement rather than just being all in your head.

Eleanor (38:43)
Hmm.

Yeah, yeah, definitely. mean, there is so many topics that we could discuss on this thing. But yeah, mean, lot of yoga as well really helps to understand the breath and just feel the ground beneath my body and taking it slow. was always very used to like these really hardcore workouts and I used to take out anger and stuff, trap.

emotion by doing these hard workouts and then when the doctors are like you need to slow down you know you need to slow down i'm like no you know but yeah when when we we got through that but now it's yeah it's just a case of okay slow down listen you know nature it's just been open really to anything that helps you become more at peace and

Hamish (39:45)
Mm

Eleanor (39:46)
Social media doesn't help with that, you know. That's another topic. So limiting the social media and scrolling, because again, it's another addictive form of escapism. And as much as it doesn't seem so harmful, there's other methods that we might choose. Yeah, social media as well. It's an overall wellness perspective.

spiritual, mental, physical perspective. But yeah, it's just step by step really.

Hamish (40:21)
I think that is fabulous. I don't think there's not, I mean, are there any more sort of tricks or simple tips to catch it? So let's go back to that. What can you do to interrupt, you know, just to sort of to catch that thought and just be able to disidentify it? What sort of tricks are there to catch it, that kind of thing?

Eleanor (40:43)
you

Yeah, I think it depends where you're at in terms of how you feel about the thoughts that come up. But I mean, at one point I used to laugh and just be like, we know that we don't feel that way. And it sounds a little bit crazy, but actually I am crazy. So yeah, okay, we'll go with that. yeah, I mean.

I would just laugh and just think, okay, here we are again, you know? And just anything that, I mean, what we're not trying to do is prevent, because the moments that I would try and prevent it is like, okay, it will come back 20 times stronger with a load of other intrusive thoughts. yeah, it's never about really preventing it. It's always about accepting them coming through and being like,

And then the moment that you try and sort of reach for that emotion again, that emotional buzz, it's like the anxiety, it's like, take a breath.

We don't need to feel that. We just need peace. So yeah, it's just sort of having a bit of a reality check of, okay, what do I want to experience? And it's having that every time. What do I want to experience? And if it isn't that, let's not go searching for it because we put it to bed, you know? I hope that's helpful.

Hamish (42:21)
I think it's, I picked up two things there. It's all thoughts. And you said, I don't want to feel that. So you've got that thought and you've then said just now, I don't want to feel that. And I think that's quite interesting. So you're already, you've already taken one aspect of it, transmuted it to something else instead of, don't want that. So you've worked out a really nice way to splice that apart from here to here.

Eleanor (42:47)
I think it's having boundaries. Yeah, having boundaries, having thought boundaries. I mean, if you let your thoughts go wild, it's just not, it doesn't, it's not beneficial. So yeah, it's not today. Maybe tomorrow.

Hamish (42:52)
Yeah. Yeah.

Not today. That's good enough. Yeah, I like that. And that that reminds me because at half past three this morning, everything was breaking hell loose. There was tsunamis and thoughts and this that and the other just like, this is really not helpful, guys, I could actually do with some sleep, which didn't happen. Yeah.

Eleanor (43:22)
That's a beautiful time to wake up though, isn't it? It's meant to be the most aligned time. It's the most active time, isn't it, I think they say.

Hamish (43:33)
It certainly was and it was the case of this is not right. So out with a piece of paper and then jot some things down and then it made sense of it. But yeah, it was, I really had to, as you said, dis-identify. I got it. Dis-identify with that thought and just say, stop, you're not being helpful. And it's hard because it's easy to get in that roller coaster of thoughts, thoughts, thoughts, boom, boom, boom, boom. And it is, it's it's a sensual roller coaster.

Eleanor (43:54)
gosh. Yeah.

Hamish (44:01)
sense, sensual, not sensual, yeah.

Eleanor (44:02)
Absolutely, yeah.

And it's the most empowering thing to take reigns on that. You know, and it's like, it's just so empowering to be able to choose. And even though it's hard, that initial stage is hard because we're taught to be in this survival mode of life. But if I don't think about it, then what's going to happen? It's going to go, you know, it's not going to work. And then, you know, it's like that. And it's like the constant worry and what ifs, but

The only moment is now. you know, time isn't linear. It is happening all at the same time. So that's why it's always important to feel because we can feel into our past. hold energy from our past. And so it's like, OK, let's focus on releasing the moment that we can start releasing all of these trauma and traps, emotions is the moment that we start to come into a proper alignment.

But yeah.

Hamish (45:01)
Brilliant. I think this has been completely enlightening because I've never met anything like this. I really haven't. So thank you for that. Thank you for sharing it because yeah, it's quite uncomfortable. As you said, it's shameful and obviously it's been a, I don't like the word battle, it's been a process to get that clarity and sanity and not be locked up in a small room with padded walls. So yeah, I think that's spectacular.

Eleanor (45:30)
Yeah, yeah I mean I hope it helps other people because we all deserve happiness you know. It doesn't matter what thoughts you have you know. It's the choices you make, it's the person you are, it's what you what you are at heart that's what matters.

Hamish (45:31)
Hmm.

Perfect. That last sentence has summed it up beautifully, Eleanor. Thank you. I'm sure there's going to be people interested in finding out about you and maybe having a chat with you saying, hey, I resonate. you help? Where can people find out about you and things like that?

Eleanor (45:50)
You're welcome.

So interestingly enough, my sort of career path and things have changed within the past week. So I am able now to start to do what I want to do, which is to help people and to produce things, whether on, on, a lot of different ways to be able to help people through, I've set up a page called wonderfully mental. I have my own page, which is the divine conscious feminine.

through Instagram. I'm not on it too much, but I'm always available to help. So if anybody ever wants to reach out. But Wonderfully Mental is about accepting all of the flaws that we have, any of the mental health, all of the stuff that we think is the crust on the bottom of the shoe, you know? And just be like, okay, let's just love ourselves as we are.

And we can still change. We can still change things that we don't like. We can still be triggered and maybe act in a way that we don't feel is best for us. And that's okay. You know, and it's just really trying to promote us, trying to love ourselves more. So yeah, Wonderfully Mental is going to be the name.

Hamish (47:24)
I absolutely love it. I'm going to find that. yeah, I think that's brilliant. And I think this is obviously why we didn't do the podcast two months ago, because you weren't ready to have this release. So think the timing is just divinely perfect.

Eleanor (47:37)
Thank you for having me, I really appreciate you.

Hamish (47:40)
it's been fab. And one, the most important question, what is your superpower that you have got from overcoming these demons in your head?

Eleanor (47:48)
Empowerment. mean, I know, even though sometimes don't get me wrong, I don't have time sometimes to do the things I want to do. But I know I'm in control. I'm just empowered. I feel like I'm empowered feminine.

Yeah, that's the superpower. It's overall just shining.

Hamish (48:09)
love it. Love it. This has been spectacular. Thank you ever so much, Alan. I've been really, really, really appreciate it.

Eleanor (48:14)
You're most welcome. Thank you for having me.

Hamish Niven (48:18)
Thank you for listening to this episode of The Crucible: Conversations for the Curious. If these powerful stories of transformation resonated with you, be sure to like, subscribe and share this show with anyone who you think could do with a dose of inspiration for their own journey. I would really appreciate it if you could make any comments on your favourite podcast platform as well, that helps me reach more people. All the important links and information are in the show notes below. Thank you very much for listening and catch up with you soon.