The Crucible:Conversations for the Curious

Hamish Niven (00:01)
Welcome to The Crucible, Conversations for the Curious. I am Hamish, your host. This podcast is for anyone going through awakenings, trying to make sense of life. Whether dark nights are the soul, needing to make life -changing decisions, struggling with addiction or critical illness, or simply realizing that their life as they know it is not aligned to values and purpose. You are not alone. You can get through this, promise you. Life is far more beautiful on the other side.

Hamish (00:29)
Hi everybody. And welcome to another edition of the Crucible, Conversations for the Curious. I'm here today with Pavli and she's come all the way from South Africa to join us. Pavli, thanks for turning up today. Please tell us a little bit about you and who you

Pavli (00:44)
Hi, Hamish. Thank you so much for having me for this beautiful podcast. I love the work that you are doing and the motivation that you are sending out there into the world. So I really love it. So as you mentioned, my name is Pavli and yes, I currently live in South Africa in Johannesburg, but I come all the way from Europe, from a little country, the heart of Europe, the Czech Republic. And yes, I guess I have been here for 14 years now, which

kind of doesn't seem real, but I am a holistic healer, which entails working with spirituality, working with Reiki, lot of trauma counseling, a of deep, deep profound healing for clients. So in a nutshell, that is who I am.

Hamish (01:35)
How did you get into that state? mean, what was your awakening that made you make sense of your identity, who you are and what you do,

Pavli (01:44)
So I think the main awakening would come when I was married. So I moved straight after school. I moved into England wanting to learn the language. there I met after a couple of years, I met my ex -husband and with him I moved to South Africa Johannesburg. you know, I think growing up there was a lot of

emotional unawareness in my family, as a lot of people on my generation will agree with, our parents weren't really equipped. wasn't internet, know, there wasn't psychologists, weren't so refined, know, information wasn't available readily. And so emotions wasn't really something that was discussed very often in family environment.

I was quite an emotional child. I saw things differently, I guess. I had different ideas. You know, I had a lot of invisible friends, if you can call them that now. I understand that those were probably spirits, my guides, know, energies that I could pick up around me. And the questions that I was interested in were deeper than the ones of my peers, I guess. So I was a little

challenging and therefore I felt quite a bit of like an outsider if I can call it that and never really fit it in. So I spent most of my childhood on my own doing walks for hours and hours in the afternoons through nature, through woods and that's really where I grew up. And I think when I moved to England I started to get out of my shell a little bit but I still didn't quite know who I was. There was a lot of people pleasing

that happened when I was small, I was growing up, you know, I had quite a small self -esteem, although to the world out there, I was the most empowered and self -aware person, you know, as we do, we keep having these masks that we keep taking on, depending on who we're meeting. And I think for me, you know, the biggest thing was when I started to realize that in the marriage, I started to feel

almost like nothing that I would do would be good enough and nothing would result in what I really wanted, which was just for someone to see me, I guess, the way I was. And I could never really understand who I was inside because I wasn't allowed to look within. You know, I wasn't allowed to explore who I was, what I wanted, what I enjoyed, what I didn't like. And so I started to feel

more and more alone, even in the marriage. And, you know, there was quite a lot of abuse while I was growing up, you know, be it from the family, be it from my friends, be it from men or boys later on in stage. And and I didn't quite know that it was abuse, because I think a lot of the times we also have this misperception that abuse is something severe.

where you have to end up in a hospital in order for it to be granted the name of an abuse. And what happened when I had my little girl, I almost instantly had, I think the first part of my awakening, where all of a sudden, and I do believe that this is for all the women out there or most of us, is when you have, especially a girl,

you become almost like the person that needs to protect her, know, the protector, the warrior, the one that all of a sudden sees all the enemies out there or potential enemies out there. And you start seeing your role as someone that needs to be a little bit more level, needs to have the self -empowerment that you need in order for you to set up boundaries with people around you.

It was just a few days after my daughter was born when I realized that I have no boundaries whatsoever. And if I do try to put any boundaries up there, it's ignored, even laughed at, if that makes sense. And so I started to ask my questions, you know, like, what do I want? Is this what I want? Is this what makes me feel good inside? And those deeper questions about the soul being.

You know, not just how you're feeling on a day to day basis, but how you're really feeling inside. And I think that is such a profound period for any awakening that is happening to anyone out there. Because it's those really soul searching deep questions that we start asking ourselves. That is no longer about how do I feel about so and so, and how did this person made me feel? It's more about how do I feel inside about

my situation about who I am in this lifetime. Is this all I am? Is this all there is for me? Can I do more? And I started what we call a therapy, even though my therapist, was extremely lucky because she was a spiritual being as well. And she was very, very aware. And so she became my spiritual master more than a therapist.

And we spent three and a half years together in a really deep, profound therapy. And, you know, I find it fascinating and I see it lot in my sessions these days as well with my clients is that no matter what you're dealing with right now in this moment, the question always has to be what happened before. You know, what is

experience that you're going through right now. What is this situation? What is this pain? What is this experience? Where is it taking you to in the past? What have you not resolved? What is paining? What is what is still hidden underneath all the layers that we put on it so that it never awakens? And when she started asking me these questions, we did a lot of deep trauma healing for my past, for my childhood, especially.

And I had many realizations that I didn't really understand before that. And, you know, there was a lot of emotions that I had to then go through. And I think being connected with your emotions is, I believe, another part of awakening process, because you have to almost acknowledge all the emotions and you have to integrate with them all.

whether they are nice, whether they don't feel nice, whether they feel dark, whether they are amazing and approved by everyone around you. And I think finding the emotions that you don't necessarily like so much is the key to awakening of any kind because you have to acknowledge even those parts of you. And through the period of the counseling with her,

I really started to ask the deep questions as to who am I, what am I doing here? Is this it? You know, what brings me joy inside of me? And slowly but surely I started to realize that it wasn't my marriage, unfortunately. And that the person that I had to be in order for my ex -family to love me and accept

was not really who I was inside. And I started hating the mask. I know it's a very strong word, but I really started to feel like I was playing games, almost like I was betraying the people around me. And eventually it came to the point where I couldn't do it anymore. And, you know, my ex -husband wasn't really interested

marriage counseling, wasn't ready for any kind of change at that point, which is obviously okay. He's on his own journey. But for me, the marriage and what it brought to me and what I had to learn about myself in the marriage came to the end. And I think that for me,

I'm trying to think because I had had something that I wanted to say now. And all of a sudden it was like, but that's not really the truth, is it? So, you know, I wanted to say that the fact that I was able to move away from him was what felt like the proper awakening. But I actually think that it was the times that I was alone all of a sudden. And it was in those moments where I had to dig deeper into my identity. And I realized that I completely

lost my identity. I don't even know if I ever had it. I I moved out from my ex -husband when I was 33 and I actually don't think that I ever knew who I was because especially for people please us out there, we have to be whatever our surroundings want us to be in order for us to feel accepted.

we will never really ask the questions who am I in this situation or who do I want to be in this situation because that doesn't quite tie up with the people around us. And so at the age of 33, I started to dive deeper into my own identity and who I was and what my purpose was. And because by that time I learned so much about relationships, so much about abuse and the different types of abuse and

A lot of techniques were taught to me with regards to how to cope with it. And I felt, you know, I've got all this knowledge now. What am I going to do with it? And I really wanted to share it with people, with women, more likely. And and I started a support group for women in 2015. And that is kind of what brought me into being the healer that I am now.

is the experiences that I had with these women where they would come and we would have coffee together and, you know, in a group or individually, it didn't really matter. was whoever came, came. And it's always funny how the process takes its own course, no matter what we do. And I find that very often we come in with some sort of prerequisite, with some sort of prejudice. You know, we want it to look like this. We want it to be like

And, you know, I remember the times when I would have 21 women responding that they're going to join me for this one morning of four hours of sharing. And I would be absolutely paranoid because I'll be like, oh my God, how am going to help 21 women? You know, like, oh, like, what am I going to do? Everybody's going to have like two minutes slot and you look up there and you find two women sitting in me. And it's that mixture of the disappointment with

already then, which I didn't know at that point that I was downloading messages, intuitive messages, and already that inner knowing of, so today I'm supposed to work with just the two of you, which is, OK, well, let's do it. And the work would be so deep. But I think we have so much of prejudice within us and so much of fear and judgment towards ourselves that we

We need things to look certain way for us to feel that they are OK. And and I think part of awakening is 100 percent to work with those as well, because those are the judgments that very often stop us from really reaching the full potential that we can in this lifetime. So, you know, I started having incredible results with these women, not really understanding what I was doing. And eventually.

Some of them would be interested in seeing me individually and I grew with them as they grew, I grew as a healer and pretty much they made me to tap into my own resources of knowledge that I have. I have had a couple of instances of going into my own past life and in those I was a healer already then. So,

literally in this lifetime just stepping into that experience and tapping into the knowledge that I have. And, you know, the clients just kind of navigate the the whole journey, I guess, of who I am today and what I'm bringing to the world.

Hamish (15:05)
I love that. love you've mapped your journey. You've looked back at it and you've made sense of it. And I think that just shows a level of awareness. I want to tap back to the mother who suddenly realized that she was the warrior because all throughout that conversation, I have just been told, ask about the warrior. So tell me who this wounded warrior is that you've become.

Pavli (15:30)
Yeah, that's such a beautiful question. Wow. So, you know, I think there is two sides to a warrior. I think there is the side that goes to the forefront and fights and really shows the enemy who the boss is and goes all in and doesn't care about any wounds or what will happen thereafter. And it's the fearlessness of the warrior that then pushes the warrior forward.

And then there is the more subtle side that sees what is happening and can kind of see the potential of there might be a danger or that might be a little bit difficult to deal with. You know, this might cause an argument or this might cause a low vibrational energies. And the warrior is then able to go and tap into their own strength and realize I can handle this or I can't. And therefore I'm going to leave

And I think at that point at the age of 33, I had no idea about the subtle warrior. So if you looked at me then and I would hope now, even though please don't ask my family because I think the idea would be very different. But you know, it's those closer to us, right? But I would hope that by now I've learned to utilize both warriors almost simultaneously, if that makes sense. But at the age of 33,

I was the forefront one. I was the one that wanted to fight about everything and wanted to prove the point and wanted to show how certain behavior hurts. And, and it's that force that very often is met with ignorance from people and rejection because they don't really know how to deal with such force. And, you know, for me, what that looked like is that

kept being isolated more and more in my marriage. And because of the isolation, I started to isolate myself as a friend as well, because I didn't know who I was. I didn't know that I was right in the way that I was feeling because I felt very rejected by the people around me. And the one important thing that I

Every woman realizes that has children in this lifetime, any kind of children, can be fur babies because not everybody is blessed with human babies, but anyone we feel really connected to as a provider, as a protector. There is a moment in which your life ceases to exist or not exist, but ceases to be important. And the importance is put onto the child that you all of a sudden

that cannot do life without you. And because I had so much of awareness of, or maybe less awareness, but more feeling about the pain that I've endured in my life, I just wanted to protect my daughter from the pain. You know, I wanted her to not cry. I wanted her to be happy all the time. And the more she would cry, the more I would become the forefront warrior that would fight everyone.

And I had to really learn to work with that, you know, because in order for people to listen, have to we have to let go of the forcefulness, of the need to be recognized. And, you know, we just have to calm down a little bit and take a deep breath and then almost allow the situation rather than force it, if that makes sense. I don't know if that answered your question.

Hamish (19:25)
It absolutely makes sense. that letting it go. I'm talking to myself here, Hamish, that let you go is a really good idea because trying to squeeze it all together gives you a bad back, makes it irritable, makes you snap at people.

Pavli (19:40)
Yeah,

Hamish (19:44)
Yeah, I love that answer. And it is you are the protector. Absolutely. I haven't had kids, so I don't have that experience. But the conversations I've had, this little thing will die unless you feed it and love it. And, you know, that is the narrative I hear time and time again. You have to and again, my brother, he would put his life down for his kids, my sister, the same thing, you the same thing.

That doesn't compute in my head because I haven't had the children this lifetime, but it's it's quite remarkable that Nurture that's that requirement to do that and also you've I get this sense you've looked at your Your upbringing and you've said no, no, no, no You've drawn a boundary and said none of those things that happened to me. Am I going to share with my daughter? So you've you're changing her story aren't you which is? remarkable

Pavli (20:41)
Absolutely, absolutely. And I think that's again, another part of awakening. You know, when we go through the awakening, you can't once you've entered the door, you cannot just say, well, now it's a little bit difficult and I don't really like what is happening to me and I don't really like the changes that I'm seeing in me and the people around me. And, know, I have to shed these relationships that are not quite good for me. I don't like it. I'm going to go back and I'm going to close the door. Doesn't exist. And.

I also, what I found is the journey never ends. And I don't want to scare the listeners away, but that is definitely not the purpose of the call here. But the journey really never ends. You know, the journey is continuous. And yes, there are moments where we feel, hey, this is cool. Like it's a little break. Like it feels easier now. And I've learned in life because I've been on this deep awakening journey now for nine years. Yeah, about nine.

And I've realized that whenever it's the quiet moments, I don't get excited anymore because I know that what is coming is the biggest storm that I've ever been through. And I'm like, no, it's nice and quiet. What is coming? So it really is a never ending experience. And you know, when we are in that space, it's almost our duty.

to then take that experience and almost bring it down onto people that are with us. So our family, our children, so that they can start their... So for example, if I started my awakening from here, I now, I feel that it's my duty and people might disagree with that. But my duty is to make sure that my daughter's awakening starts up here because she should

the work with me before she awakens that I couldn't do when I was little because I didn't have the aware parents. didn't have the emotional skills that I have now to communicate emotions with her, to explain things with regards to energies, you know, how her body responds to different challenges in life and what she can do about it. We didn't have that or I didn't have that. And I know many people of my generation, we

weren't taught the skills of how to release trauma or if a friend was rude to us. Whereas these days, a lot of kids have that now. So I believe that the awakening is happening in such different level now that people really don't know how to deal with it. You know, there is almost a sense of newborn children all come with their own

systems and abilities to deal with the situations that they put through you far more than we were born with.

Hamish (23:45)
Okay, that's interesting, isn't it? So is that where there's more of a bias to, let's get this right, authenticity over attachment?

Pavli (23:57)
100%. 100%. And also if you look at what children are doing and what they are interested in and how they are operating, every generation, so if I take every 10 years where children are born, they born completely different, with different skills, with different abilities, with different outlook on the world and what world means to them, than what the generation before that was.

So we are like super behind now. Like we are the monkey's age. So and I find that a lot of people that are going through this and are not necessarily awakened struggle with that concept because they don't understand the children because the children are so far more advanced than they can ever comprehend that it's just difficult and the gap between the parents and the children becomes so big because they just are

born awakened almost already. And unless the parents are doing the work, they kind of can't really communicate with each other properly and they can't

Hamish (25:07)
That's tragic, isn't it? That's really, a really, really interesting observation. Yeah. So how do you, how do you help people? How do you help women make sense of that? And then hopefully them help their spouses make sense of that. How do you, you bring, there's the child. How do you bring the families up to their level? I mean, obviously this is a part of your skillset, isn't it?

Pavli (25:27)
Yeah.

Yes. So I work with everyone. So I work with men, I work with women, children, grandmothers, grandfathers, do the whole lot. Because it is so important, you know, if you need help, doesn't really matter who you are. And it shouldn't matter. There is always one person that is awakened a little bit more in a couple, because there has to be that pull a little bit.

So if you have both awakened, I find that it kind of can become, you know, the relationship will be completely on another level and then you do work on a different scale. But for a normal relationship, there is always one person that is a little bit more aware than the other so that they can almost guide as to what needs to happen, how it's affecting, you know, just to bring a little bit more awareness into the relationship. And what I find is

A lot of the times, because I'm able to do life coaching, mindset shifting through talking and communicating with my clients, as well as then tap into the energies and then into their bodies and heal the traumas, heal the old belief system, heal their own prejudgments that they hold within themselves. Then you will find that very often

The healing is much more faster and it's on much deeper level because you are able to then release it from every part of the person, of the being, you know, which is then the mind. It is the body. It is the spirit. We have to deal with all of it in order for for anything to be released properly, you know, so that it doesn't have to come back. And what I find is very often is that I teach a of parents

skills that they can then transfer onto their children. So because a lot of the time parents now that are awakening are not necessarily equipped to be able to help the children navigate their emotions. And that's part of what I do is I help them understand their own emotions. And through that, I then teach them skills on how to transfer that awareness into their children so that they don't have to deal with the things that we had to deal with.

Hamish (27:57)
curious about your phrase, awakenings, when people are awakening. What is your understanding of when somebody is awakening?

Pavli (28:05)
So there is a couple of aspects to it. And I would say that the main thing for me, the main indicator for me that somebody might be going through an awakening is when all the old pain starts coming up to the surface for whatever reason, whether there is traumatic experience that they had now that is causing all the trauma from the past to come back.

to their lives so they can feel it and they have nowhere to hide. I find that very often that pain then becomes so overpowering that they come to me not because they want to or because they've heard of me and they're like, well, let me go and see Pavli. They come to me because they're in absolute despair because the pain just becomes over consuming. I find that, you know, and my clients, well,

I want to say my clients laugh at that, actually if you see their faces, they look horrified when I say that. going through this myself, I am able to use a lot of my own experiences in my sessions, which I think is the best way to do it anyway. And so when my clients are hurting and that pain that I'm speaking about is really, really severe, I tell them, well, this is exactly where I need you to be.

And they go, huh? But I thought you are a healer. I you like here to help me. And I'm like, well, yes. But unless you feel this pain through every fiber of your body, every molecule, every cell in your body, and we have 37 trillion cells. That's a lot of cells. And every cell has to feel this level of profound pain where you literally feel like you are being burned to nothing. Then I often say.

And that is exactly my job to burn you to nothing. So that when you're there and there is nothing left of the old you. We built you up and we built you up to who you need to be in this lifetime. Who what what values and and beautiful things you are bringing into this world, because all of a sudden, when the pain leaves.

you start seeing yourself in a different light. And that's the most incredible experience ever. You know, it's such a satisfying feeling when you see someone lying in despair on the floor and all of a sudden start standing up and walking again because they know they can. Not because someone told them, not because I'm holding their hands.

but because they're learning skills important for them to be able to do that for themselves.

Hamish (31:01)
I think that is the most profound explanation of an awakening. I love that. It is when every single cell screams, need help. I can't do this anymore. And I guess everything else is all the nonsense, all the fear, all the pain, all the everything is reduced less than that pain. And at that stage, it's I want to get fixed. I want help.

rather than all these addictions, all these fears, all these stories are all piling up and it's just gone, and you want to change.

Pavli (31:34)
Thank

It's almost, you know, at that point, Hamish, it feels like you really have no choice. You know, because your soul has decided. Remember, our soul designs everything before we born, right? That's my belief. People might believe in different things, but that is what I resonate with. And so the soul knows the moment. We don't know as humans because we have, you know, all the things that we go through and we have ego

We have this joy and this rubbish lifestyle that we enjoy. So we're carrying on being in this like a bubble. But the soul knows the precise moment in which it is ready to awaken to be this grand thing. Okay. And so I think in that moment, you really have no choice as a human being because your soul has decided that this is the moment in which all of the rubbish is going to be shed.

and the beauty of the the true essence of you will come to the light. And I think it's the most beautiful, beautiful space to be in. And it happens in different times. You know, people experience it in different ages. They experience in different stages as well. But one fundamental part of awakening that I also want to mention is the shedding of ego. And I know the Internet

saturated with it. It's like it's everywhere. Everybody's talking about ego and you you must let go of your ego. And many of my clients will be like, well, what does that mean? And I'm like, well, that voice inside that has just asked that question, that is it. You know, that is what you need to let go of because you know the answer. You don't need anybody to confirm anything for you. You know, but the voice inside that tries to sway us from the awakening journey to keep us entrapped in the 3D dimension.

plays the different, I want to say almost like dramas on us, you know, where we get entangled into these dramas. And if you've noticed, lot of it is fear based because that's where people are most manipulative, you know, is when you are fearing something, then you must quickly do X, Y and Z in order for the event go away. Right. And and I find that a lot of the times

people come to awakening and it might feel like an accident. Like they come and they're like, you know, what has just happened? my gosh, like, I don't want to do this. But if you then take them back, sometimes few years, you know, sometimes few months, there are signs, there are subtle signs, but you start having that little bit of a inner voice in your tummy telling you,

I don't know about this person anymore and I really don't want to go to this party anymore. feel like, ugh, you know, I used to love it for 30 years and all of a sudden now I don't like it. And it's these subtle moments where the soul is already telling us this is not your way. You need to change the direction. And when we're not listening, I call them the little matches from the universe. And when we're not listening, then the universe gives us, you're a big match.

that throws us completely off balance. So that's generally what I say.

Hamish (35:08)
I love that and I love the way it gets down. You get less and less choices. I still think you have two choices. I think you always have choice. You either can stay in that pain and that suffering, or you can make that change or you can go, I want to change. That's the only thing that from my experience was because when I was on my slope, when I was drinking, I always had a choice to carry on, to crash my car,

Pavli (35:34)
is.

Hamish (35:36)
kill myself to whatever but I chose life. that was my experience of it but the rest of it is absolutely and I do look back and think you know that I didn't want to do that anymore I was doing that for people pleasing I was that for people pleasing I was manipulating and it's a painful business looking back because you're looking back at stuff and going I was horrible

Pavli (35:45)
Yes.

Mm -hmm. Yeah.

Hamish (36:07)
I was really horrible. I was unkind. was lying. was keeping myself safe, as you said. I was keeping myself safe. was protecting myself from that fear. So I love the way that you carry your, you help them with their awareness and just say, is, you know, just, they narrate the story, don't you? You're holding them, holding the space for them to narrate that story.

Pavli (36:27)
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And and, know, also another part of this journey is to start loving the Hamish that was doing all those things, you know, that was drinking, that was crashing the car, that was lying, because that is still part of you. And, you know, I my shadow is my anger. And we've got an intergenerational anger as well on top of that. So it's fun.

And I had to learn over the years to acknowledge it, but most importantly to love it. And when I say to people, you have to love that about you and they go, not a chance. Like I'm never gonna love it. I want it out of my life. And only when you come to peace with all of you, everything about you, because it's not

anger that is important. It's what you do with the anger. So my daughter laughs very often because you can read in my face. Like, I mean, I still haven't mastered that. I don't know. I think I might need some other teacher to teach me how to master. So nobody knows what I'm feeling because you will know immediately as I walk into the room, you know exactly. And she always laughs at me because then I can see the little looks. Kids are so intuitive.

And I'll say something or I'll walk into the room and I see those little eyes in the corner of my eyes watching me carefully studying. Is mom angry? You know what's going on? And because I don't react to the anger anymore, I'm in it and you can feel it, but I'm OK with it because I don't give it the power that it wants from me. And I think it's it's allowing you to be in the spaces that don't feel nice. I think

absolutely vital part of any awakening on any level of awakening actually I would even

Hamish (38:31)
Yep. Absolutely. that is one of the things I didn't have growing up. mean, most of you said most of our generation, strong emotions were not tolerated. You know, don't be angry, go to your room until you're better. All that stuff. Whereas my sister, allows her daughter to be angry, encourages her. Are you angry? Yes, I'm angry. And they work through it. And then, you know, it's like, I'm okay now, Mummy. Because this child, yeah.

Pavli (38:52)
Thank

It's done. Exactly.

Hamish (39:01)
Exactly. God, I wish I was allowed to express that as a child because I can't, I wouldn't be me. I'd be a different person. I'd be on a different path, but it would have been nice not to have 52 years of not making sense of stuff and flying off the handle and breaking my knuckles against walls and, and, things like that. Um, but I didn't. So, you know, I can't change that past. Um, you know, I just, as you said, I have to love little Hamish who was

Pavli (39:09)
effort.

Hamish (39:29)
angry at dad, angry at mum, just say hey little Hamish it's cool you were doing the best you could.

Pavli (39:35)
So, know, I do agree with what you've just said, but I find that the children that are allowed to be who they need to be at any point with all their emotions where they don't feel rejected because of their emotions or the love is not taken away from them. They don't necessarily have the need to work with the emotions to the level that we do, for example, right, to the level where

want to understand it, you want to explore it, you want to open the platform for other people to feel safe, to express their own emotions. And so their work in this world will be different to the work that we need to do, because our generation was different and our generation is now bringing the awareness. If you look on the Internet, most of the podcasters, I don't know what they're called, but most of the people that are doing

work similar to yours, where you're putting it out there. People are learning knowledge. People are hearing experiences from others. Those are people, similar generation. And the youngsters, if you look at them, they speak of completely different things. Things that we might still not understand, and they already understand it because they need to bring different knowledge into the world. I hope that makes

Hamish (40:59)
Yep, that was a snot klaap.

Pavli (41:01)
Yeah.

Hamish (41:03)
That was a massive snot klaap because, you know, I hadn't considered that. But absolutely, you know, they have a different mindset, a different way of thinking and seeing and fine. Yeah. Thank you for that. I've now got to not reconsider. I've now got to reassess a little bit and that's just brilliant. I love that. And that makes sense as well because my...

Pavli (41:24)
Yeah.

Hamish (41:32)
real sense is humanity is doing this. Yeah, there's more, there's more going down that way. our parents went through, you know, end of the war, baby boomers, that kind of thing. They had all that scarcity, all that fear, all that absolute poverty post World War Two. My generation, you know, here's the keys, go out, come back tonight. That absolute freedom. And now, you know, come back, phone up five to five minutes, that kind of completely the opposite.

every generation is learning more so I am seeing we are all doing this and then the kids your kids generation they've got their own stuff to deal with they'll be they'll be messed up in the same way that you were by your parents to cope with the next lot yeah that's not fair is it we do our best and it still doesn't work yeah

Pavli (42:19)
No.

And you know the thing is you can be as aware as you want to and you can be as awakened as you can but you are still a new human and I think a lot of people forget that and a lot of people have this prejudgment that well if I'm awakened then I need to be perfect or I am gonna be perfect and you know a lot of people a lot of my clients see me in that light as well and

you know, I like to kind of bring them back to Earth and be like, no, I also slip up and I do this and I did that and I did that. And they go, really? Exactly. Exactly that face. Perfect. And and you don't get 100 percent. And they go, what? And I'm like, well, yeah, because I am still only a human. And I know that sounds ridiculous. But, know, we are in this humanly body and the main

Hamish (43:00)
I can't believe

Pavli (43:16)
The main task for us here on Earth is to experience emotions. Right. So that is. That is why we here. So I can be as awakened as I can and as aware as I can, but I still have to go through the emotions in order for me to understand what is the next level, what is the next step. So, yeah. I love it. I love the journey.

Hamish (43:43)
Yep. Yeah, it doesn't get easier. You just get better. Yeah.

Pavli (43:48)
True, very true. I'm gonna remember that. I love that. Doesn't get easier, you just get better at it.

Hamish (43:54)
I think this is, this is fascinating, really, really interesting. And just that whole, that whole process of joining those dots, making sense of things, feeling that discomfort. mean, you've already, you've already said, I'm having an awakening, things aren't happy, things aren't easy. You know, I'm not, I'm not happy where I am. I'm curious, but it's frightening. And

Pavli (44:08)
Thank you.

Hamish (44:20)
I get more curious and then, you know, looking around, they phone up you, they go online, podcast, whatever. It's a journey, isn't it? It is not necessarily a long journey, but it is a journey and it's... Yeah, once you're on it, you can't change. You can't stop.

Pavli (44:26)
Thank

And you can't ignore it as well. It's not like you can say, OK, well, I'm going to awaken to this point and then I'll stay there, you know, and I'll just enjoy life and it'll be nice and easy because we as humans constantly have to evolve. And it's like, you know, a lot of I find that a lot of my clients find comfort in that because nobody ever comes to me when they're in that happy limbo.

You know, where everything is kind of going great and their life is sorted and they've got happy wife and a great children and car and work and house and everything is just like great. Yeah, we're going to holiday three times a week, but three times a year. But Pavli, can you help me grow? Nobody does that. That is just the pause for us to take a breath before the next level, you know, and and so I feel

A lot of the times when people speak of this like a placebo moment in their life where, know, like everything is going great and everything is kind of calm and the waters are nice. You don't grow in that. And that is why we will eventually look for some sort of drama, whether we start extracting things from the past because we've watched a movie or a series or a podcast or we heard something and all of a sudden the past

is in front of us with all the things that we didn't see before. And we start tapping into that because that drama gets us going. Or whether we endure some sort of traumatic experience in order for us to be pushed into the situation that no longer feels as good as the limbo would. But we never grow in that space. You know, if someone is getting constant ace at school,

they eventually going to kind of go, well, I'm not going to study anymore because I mean, could ace anyway. So why would I do that? You know, and then all of a sudden they get a, I don't know, whatever it is, CD 50%, let's say. And they go, oh my God, but I'm an ace student. I need to now come and I need to figure out what happened here. And that's what the journey is about. You know, so a lot of people want it to be easy, but it's not about being easy.

Because when it's easy, it's boring.

Hamish (47:06)
I think there's another layer to that as well. I completely agree. I think, I mean, you mentioned it a while ago, you know, when stuff gets easy, you'll look like, crap, what's coming. But I think, I think what's really important as well is your awakening can take a lifetime. It doesn't have to be every day, six hours a day of tests and this, that, and the other. And you've got to love yourself at that spot. You know, as you said, if I suddenly realized

Pavli (47:17)
Yeah.

Hamish (47:34)
I have a repeated behavior where I don't listen. What do say? I don't listen on my phone. It's just that next level of awareness. It's not a journey of I have to, I must, I have to. It is curiosity and awareness, isn't it? It's a gentle journey. It might be scary, but it's a gentle journey.

Pavli (47:40)
Yeah.

for

Absolutely.

You're so right there. And I really love the point that you made about loving yourself throughout the journey. And I think that's so important because these days we have so many judgments. We have access to so many perfect people out there that portray this perfection and this having all of it figured out and having the lifestyle that everybody supposedly wants.

And yet deep down, they bleeding every single day. And a lot of the youngsters, I see it obviously with my daughter, she's turning 12. They want that. They want people to almost envy them. They want to believe that their life is better than what it actually is. And if if they don't make people believe that. They've now started to take it as a failure, which is frightening.

which is something that we really need to start thinking about as a human race, because we've now put all these standards out there and the poor children these days have these standards to fulfill. And that is just crazy, you know, because then where is the authenticity in it? Because if I don't have this standard of living or I'm not that good or I'm not that, I don't know, pretty, then I can't

be authentic anymore, then I need to pretend that I am that. And I think that's such a slippery road that we have taken on as human race.

Hamish (49:37)
That is interesting. That really fascinates me. That is the next level of authenticity, isn't it? So I've got my phone. Doesn't he look beautiful? Chiseled, Hemingworth, that kind of thing. Or doesn't she look beautiful? Yeah, it is just that next. It is just. Big just. Just that next level of authenticity where those kids will have to learn that. We had to learn our lessons. I guess that's theirs, poor buggers.

And it's it's in their face all the time, isn't it?

Pavli (50:11)
Absolutely. that's, I think that is what we didn't have. You know, we had the break. I mean, if we were running outside for six hours a day, nobody really cared what you looked like after three hours, because I mean, like, you know, there wasn't a mirror, there wasn't even an opportunity for you to look any better anyway. But these days, because the access onto social media, the way they look, you know, on the phone, they can just look in the camera. It's constant. So the pressure on the youngsters is so much bigger.

But then again, I do believe that that's the next level of the awakening. If I look at it from a holistic as humankind, the next level of awakening is really just returning home. And again, that's another cliche, but it really is just that. You know, the way you were made, the way you were born, the way you feel comfortable, that is what you're supposed to

not what everybody else wants you to be. And I think this is just the next level because, you know, I feel that the world right now is getting overly filled with social media and the fakeness of everything and everyone. And I think it has to get there in order for them people go, I don't want to do that anymore. Geez, I feel so tired of it. Like I just want to wake up and

You know, I used to use makeup. I colored my hair and about five years ago, I gave it all up and it was the greatest decision I could have ever made because my life is so much easier. My mornings, I can just wake up and I'm out of the house in 10 minutes. I love that. Whoever out there, if you want to have an easy life, give up all of that because and you know, sometimes I look in the mirror and I'm like you.

wow, okay, what the world has to deal with today, but you know what, they just have to deal with it because this is who I am. And the nonchalant about it, it feels so great, so

Hamish (52:23)
I think we've tapped into there a really, really interesting conversation that I would love to bring into a group setting because as kids, we had things to deal with. Kids now are more authentic. There's less attachment. They're more like to scream and I want this, I want this. They're more authentic to who they are rather than I need to be loved.

Pavli (52:48)
Mm

Hamish (52:49)
Conversely, you've now got that next layer of the onion, which is she's beautiful, he's beautiful, I want to be. This just taps back into my addiction. was hiding from, hiding from, and I had to crash to make sense of it. Unfortunately, many kids are, they're taking their own lives because they can't cope with that. I guess that's the same as the drinker who killed himself and the drug addict who overdosed.

Pavli (53:08)
Yeah.

Yeah, I love the different aspects of the conversation that we are tapping into today, you know, and the moments, the aha moments that we bring in for each other. I think that is so powerful.

Hamish (53:12)
Wow.

Yeah, I like that. is why I'm enjoying these podcasts and these conversations because it is challenging, it is interesting and I mean, I never know where they're going to go at all. It is really, really interesting. Okay, I know. I want to go back a little bit to when you...

You separated from your husband and obviously you left, there was a big void in your life where that part of your family had gone. What happened there around relationships and connecting with people? Did you see a difference?

Pavli (54:06)
So I would say that for the

maybe a year after I moved out was a of finding who I was, but already as soon as I was separated, because at first we went through separation before the divorce was finalized and already in the separation. So we used to work for the same company and he left the company about maybe a year before I left, before we separated.

I worked, he was on a board level. So he was one of the CEOs, what have you. And I was the HR. And that was always the elephant in the room, right? Because all of a sudden the wife of the CEO is the HR. I mean like, yeah, right. I'm gonna tell you something confidentially.

You know, I'm going to complain about the fact that I haven't had leave in three years, you know, because you're going to go and take it. And it was so difficult and yet so rewarding for me to find my own presence in the company and to find my own ways with people. And I remember when he when I left, when I left my ex -husband and obviously people in the company found

It's almost like I then became more authentic, but yet very fake at that point, but more authentic with how I was talking to people. And it all of a sudden stopped being about me being the married woman to the previous CEO and being Pavli, the HR manager. And there was an interesting shift that I saw where I

all of a sudden invited into situations that I wouldn't have been before. And I had comments made that would have never happened before. people started noticing that I was changing my behavior and I was more happier and I was more open. I could talk to people more freely and they could see the change. And obviously I had no idea at that time. So the change within me of feeling the freedom was absolutely huge.

And at that point in my life, I was still very much about the 3D reality. I wanted to be beautiful at all costs. I wore high heels, mini dresses, all those things, makeup, hair done, and all of it to play my part, to attract people almost into my space. Hiding behind the mask.

kind of not allowing any of the trauma into my forefront because it was too painful. And so I ended up for that period of about 12 months. It was almost like a game, you know, where I was freer and yet I could feel so much heavier. It was a weird dynamic and

Eventually I couldn't, you know, I couldn't do it anymore. I started saying no to things, started saying no to people, you know, the way they would interact with me or the way they would make me feel in certain situations. And I think for me, that was probably one of the biggest parts in which I was like, whoa, okay, what did I allow everyone to do? You know, and that was so normal for me because that meant

that I was desired, that people loved me, people wanted me, know, whatever that self esteem needed at that point. But it was all just so fake. So I think for me in that time, it was inevitable for me to start digging into my own values and stop receiving them from the outer world. And I think that is

absolutely crucial for anyone, not just people that are going through awakening, even those that are fully asleep, to start realizing that to go out there for self validation and for confirmation and approval is such a slippery road to take because you just never know when the ice is too thin and you're going to go under and you're going to completely lose yourself there because that's not who you are.

So I think people, if they don't take anything else out of it today, I think this is so important to always vet with yourself, is this okay with me? Am I the one that's going to be happy if I do this? And if the answer is no, then ask. You don't have to not do it, but you have to ask yourself then, why do I want to do it anyway? Why is it important for me to do it, to receive that external validation? Because that is just so important.

Hamish (59:21)
Yep. Absolutely. It is. Absolutely. That is so important. It's however, it's difficult to become aware that you are seeking that externally. I remember when I was people pleasing, was it was it was for me. Yeah, I'll do that for you. I'll do this. I'll be that I'll be whatever you want me to be just so you like me. And you do you do get that buzz, but it's never enough. It's like

carrot. Another carrot, know, grow your own carrots, you're fine, but it's it's never enough. It's not sustainable. And as you said, you're on that.

Pavli (59:55)
Absolutely.

And I think you are so right there, Hamish, where you say that it's so difficult to recognize that. It's so difficult to become aware of it. And I think, you know, if people every now and then just wake up in the morning and just ask themselves, you know, who am I today?

And just there in bed, the minute you wake up with the messy hair and the beautiful flowery breath that we all wake up with and the creases on your cheek from the pillow and all of those things that are just so natural where you are in your own habitat. You are not judged by anybody else in that moment.

And just asking yourself that little tiny question. And yet that question is one of the most powerful one you can ever ask yourself. Who am I today? What do I want to bring into the world today? What do I want the world to receive from me today? And just by asking that, if you divulge from that in the day, there will be a feeling inside of your body that will tell you, but you said you're going to be this today. And all of a sudden you are that.

You know, think that those little questions can be so powerful for people and yet so little of us do

Hamish (1:01:29)
Yep, I'm going to try that first thing in the morning before my brain's had a chance to kick in. Who do I want to be? Yeah. I want coffee. No, who do I want to be? Not what do I want?

Pavli (1:01:33)
Yeah.

Coffee is after this answer.

Hamish (1:01:42)
Absolutely. Delay that gratification. Yeah. I think that's really, really interesting. But it also goes back to what you said earlier on. You do get these messages. Your inner voice, your heart, your gut is telling you. It's going tap, tap, tap, tap, tap, snot club. It does. You do get them.

Pavli (1:01:57)
Yeah.

Yep and eventually it's like yeah.

Hamish (1:02:06)
Pavli, this has been a fabulous conversation. I've really enjoyed it. I've really enjoyed your wisdom, your humor and your passion for making sense of change because it must have been tough to say to your husband, the father of your child, this isn't working, I'm going separate ways, but you chose to do that for you.

You seem fairly normal. I can't say more than fairly.

Pavli (1:02:38)
Thank you.

was thanking you for the normal, not the fairly.

Hamish (1:02:46)
But what... I see. Okay. But I think, you know, what you're doing to help people and help them through their own journeys and making sense of things and encouraging them, I think that's, you know, that's all we can do really, isn't it? Help people make sense of stuff. I think that is really, really, really profound stuff. So yeah, love it.

Pavli (1:03:08)
And you know, I just want to make a small correction there because I feel that since I am authentic, then I need to set this straight. I didn't move out from my ex -husband because I wanted to. I did it for my daughter. At that point, she was the driving wheel where I was like, I do not want her to grow up in this. I don't want her to believe that this is normal.

And it was again, the mother in me that knew that my responsibility was now towards my child to show her what is okay and what is not, what is normal and what is not, and how I wanted her to experience relationships and almost teach her that it's okay to put a boundary and if the boundary is not met over and over again,

then it's okay to leave the situation no matter what the situation is. And the reason why I want to set the record straight is because it's okay if people make the changes for other people or other reasons than themselves at the beginning of the process. Because sometimes we need that driver, we need that crutch, we need

that believe that we are doing it for someone else because we're not yet at the level of self -love to do it for ourselves, I would have never left my marriage if it was just for me, because I married to stay in it for life. You know, I was one of the ones that believed, you know, we signed an antinatural or whatever you call it. And I had no idea that I signed anything because I didn't care.

I genuinely didn't care about the idea of it ending because for me that was absolutely no question. I mean, I'm marrying you for life. I'm not marrying you to get a divorce, you know? And so I find that very often people make the first change, the beginning of their awakening journey, if that's the right word to use, for someone else.

because they can't handle the way the parents are painting or the child is feeling or the child is crying or this and that. doesn't really matter. But the fact is that what you do afterwards and as you start realizing, as you start growing, as you start developing the self -love towards yourself, then that is important to carry on the journey for you. I hope that makes sense. I just wanted to set that straight.

Hamish (1:06:03)
That was brilliant. Yeah. Thank you. I'll answer that again. Thank you for that. And you've just added that richness to it. And you've also helped me and other people make sense of, I can't do this for myself, but I can do it for something I love more than myself. And I think that was a really, really important, yeah, at that moment, absolutely.

Pavli (1:06:23)
Yeah. In that moment. Yeah. In that moment. Absolutely.

Hamish (1:06:32)
I think that was really super, thank you. Pavli, where can people find out more about you and what you do?

Pavli (1:06:40)
So they can follow me on social media. So I am quite active on Facebook, Instagram. I do have a TikTok, but yeah, it's, know, there's so many things that one has to do. I'm not the bestest of friends with social media, but I am quite good on Facebook. So people can find me on Facebook. All my events are on there. What I do, you know, what specials I offer.

They can also check out my website. It's www .holistic -soul -healer .co .za. On my social media, it's pretty easy at Healer Pavli. And they can also get hold of me on my phone. I don't know if you're going to be sharing the details at the bottom. I don't want to be naming everything. But yeah, and you know, if they're interested

just asking a question or if they want to start their journey or if they're not sure what they want and they're ready to figure it out, then they can reach out.

Hamish (1:07:47)
Lovely. I think that's great and I wish I had known about you when I was going through mine because it would have been easier, I think.

Pavli (1:07:57)
Thank you. Thank you, Hamish.

Hamish (1:08:00)
And last but not least, what is your superpower that you've got from your awakenings?

Pavli (1:08:09)
That's a big question. Wow. Super power.

You know, I don't know if you can call it a superpower or not, but I think the ability to be myself.

in every moment, I think that is what I would call my superpower. You know, being in truth and speaking my truth. Because I feel that nothing can then go wrong, even if people don't like it, it's still the truth and it's never going to change. So you might not like it, but I don't have to think about it anymore or I don't have to pretend with it anymore. It is what it is.

I find that when I teach people how to step into the superpower, as you call it, I love that. I'm going to use that going forward. Life becomes so much easier because they find exactly they can go, well, if you like it or not, I actually don't have to care because it is the truth. I mean, I can't do anything about it. It is what it is.

So I think everyone should step into that superpower and we'll have such beautiful earth to live on because there is no judgements, there is no prerequisite, there is no pretence if you are true to who you are.

Hamish (1:09:41)
Brilliant. Cool. Well, lovely. Thank you so much for today. Thank you for everything. I've enjoyed it and yeah, wishing you all the very,

Pavli (1:09:53)
Thank you so much, Hamish. I really appreciate your platform and what you are creating and what you are doing for people. Thank you so much and thank you for having me.

Hamish (1:10:03)
Cheers. Bye

Pavli (1:10:05)
Lovely. Thank you.

Hamish Niven (1:10:09)
Thank you for listening to this episode of The Crucible: Conversations for the Curious. If these powerful stories of transformation resonated with you, be sure to like, subscribe and share this show with anyone who you think could do with a dose of inspiration for their own journey. I would really appreciate it if you could make any comments on your favourite podcast platform as well, that helps me reach more people. All the important links and information are in the show notes below. Thank you very much for listening and catch up with you soon.