The Crucible:Conversations for the Curious

Hamish Niven (00:01)
Welcome to The Crucible, Conversations for the Curious. I am Hamish, your host. This podcast is for anyone going through awakenings, trying to make sense of life. Whether dark nights are the soul, needing to make life -changing decisions, struggling with addiction or critical illness, or simply realizing that their life as they know it is not aligned to values and purpose. You are not alone. You can get through this, promise you. Life is far more beautiful on the other side.

Hamish (00:29)
Hello everybody and welcome to another episode of the Crucible Conversations with the Curious. I'm here with a dear friend of mine called Steven. I met just before I went to rehab and once I got out I contacted him and said can you help me get my business back online? Can you help me make sense of what I'm doing? Can you help me? Can you help me? And he did and he took me through a remarkable journey of getting myself together, helping me build my confidence, helping

makes sense of certain things and I'm really delighted he's turned up here today all the way from Cape Town in the rain to share his story. Steven, thank you so much for turning up today. I really appreciate

Steven Levy (01:12)
Hamish, thank you. And thank you for the opportunity that you gave me to walk that journey alongside you. I really appreciate it because I think there was great, not I think there was, there was great learning for me out of that. And purely because you kind of stepped in and where you were. And maybe it's great lesson for me too.

always comes back to, think, you know, people don't realize the power of when you step, when you are, when you do own your journey and you're able to speak about it and you kind of, you know, face those hidden truths and all your own truths, you give others permission to do the same. So that was very powerful. So thank you.

Hamish (02:03)
You helped me get back on the straight and narrow and I still remember that story. Hamish, go and find yourself a vision statement." And in about three months I did. Yeah. Revealing the beauty beyond the noise.

Steven Levy (02:15)
people on the noise. I'll never forget that. It's fantastic. I suppose we all have a story to tell. Sometimes we just need to tell it.

Hamish (02:31)
Yeah, absolutely. Well, my friend, now is your time. I would love to hear your story. Can you tell me a little bit about your story?

Steven Levy (02:34)
That's the...

Wow, it's story with a few chapters. I'm just trying to think where to start. Yeah, you know, if I look back where I am now and some of the things that I've been through, there's a lot of lessons. I don't think those things always have to be sort of low points or bad things.

But I'm going to probably contradict that a little bit or put little bit of emphasis on that is those low points that we hit that we are really tough to deal with at the time. We don't see the wood for the trees. It really is hard. And I suppose it's a great sign that we're which is a comforting thought.

is those low points are the ones that we learn our biggest lessons. But I don't always want to focus on that because I'm very grateful for those hard points that I've prosecuted in my life. And they are got some good lessons too. start where? Fascination for people?

is maybe with, and that comes from school days. But I never realized it or I was never conscious of it until I intentionally went and discovered it. You know, that thing we were talking about earlier is that, you know, that journey of self discovery, it's not something we all do, but it's something that we all need to do. It's not easy. It's a tough

But it's an extremely liberating one, if you're honest with yourself. So, yeah. So I think, yes, so what came up for me, there was a couple of things. It was about that it affirmed to me that I the firm belief that every single one of us, all eight billion of us, if close enough, has something unique to offer the world.

We just need to go and discover it and I don't think we ever talk to or shown how to. I discovered it extremely late in my life.

And then those... when you do go through that journey of discovery, I think it's then easier. It's not easy, but it's easier to maybe face those or to own those truths that... and those things like you did. And it's extremely... it's extremely liberating, you know. So, some of the key things that I learned...

in my journey is, one is, and this my dad taught me is, you can never be bigger than the game itself. And it doesn't matter what game you're in. Be it in the sports field, be it in the courtroom, it just in a social environment. I think the day that that happens, you'll go backwards.

So, I don't know if one puts the word humility next to that. We need to remain humble in this big, vast world of ours. The other thing that I learnt is, I learnt two really key things that were pivotal points in my journey was that...

And certainly as, I don't think only as, but certainly as a South African male, it's okay to ask for help. And that you don't have to be bulletproof.

I I was, but I also thought I had to be. Probably just this environment that we brought up in. And I learned very quickly that you don't have to be, and then there were great lessons out of that. The first lesson was, I suppose like all business owners or entrepreneurs, and I do make a different distinction between the two.

is that yes, we do get caught up in our business. We do have to work hard and there's nothing easy. Otherwise, we'd all be doing it. It's... But I think one's got to be very careful that you don't overdo that at the risk of your own health.

in service of being there for others, for those that you care about. Be it your family, be it people you work with that are working for you, people that you work with, your close friends. And that happened to me because I just worked. And we seem to claim this badge of honor for putting in long hours. And I know I'm not...

I'm not oblivious or to the fact that in business and you're certainly in your, if you're in your own business, that there will be those nights where you're going to put, you know, burn the midnight oil and, but it should never ever become, it should be more the exception than the rule. Okay. In my case, I made it the rule.

And I had a go and I didn't burn out, but I got very close to it. And I, to the fact point that I had to go and see a psychologist in Johannesburg in those days at Fitz University and

She said to me, she didn't even say hello to me when I walked in. She just said, you're about a month away from being hospitalized. I thought, okay, I love you too. And good afternoon, how are you? But I must have looked bad. So I'm grateful to her because she just went, I must have looked bad because she just went straight for it. And she said to

She said, tell me something, why do you work like you do? I well, I've got people to look after in my business. I've got in the factory that I was in, and then I was in partnership with people, with other people. I said, got my family to look after. She said, hm, she says, that's interesting. She says, you're probably about a month away from being hospitalized and hopefully without a heart attack.

And she says, what do you do for yourself to kind of recharge yourself? I said, well, I love running. I go to gym, to do weights, just to keep fit or keep the muscles strong. I play golf and all these wonderful things. And she says, that's amazing. Then why do you look like you do? Because those

great things to tell us because I do them all in theory.

Hamish (10:24)
you

Steven Levy (10:25)
And then came the famous question, why? I said, because I just don't have time, because I'd be busy touch wood, and I've got to make sure that all is good. And she said, that's interesting. So look at the condition you're in. And all these people that you tell me that you care for, that you're working so hard to look after those people that you really care for.

She said, how good are you going to be to these people that you care for from a hospital bed and hopefully without a heart attack? And that really like... That drove the...

kind of spears straight between my forehead and I thought, it's actually true.

And that was a big turning point for me is that, you know what, we need to look after ourselves. And this claiming this badge of honor for working 14 hours a day, I think is, if we get to that and we're doing it consistently, we need to seriously ask ourselves the question, why? Is our business growing so much and we just, we need to bring other people into it.

Is it just a habit that we've gotten into? But whatever the reason is, it's not sustainable and it's not good.

And actually you can't give the best and actually those people that you care for, what I did learn out of it is now I'm giving them probably third or fourth rate, Steven instead of first rate, Steven. So how much do I really care for them?

know. So maybe that was the universe telling me that I'm not bulletproof.

Hamish (12:15)
That's a common story, isn't it? That I'm working to look after everyone and I'm everybody 100%, which is everybody 40 % or 30 % and nothing to myself. And as you said, know, my wife, my kids, getting, they're getting that, work's getting that. And if I get sick, they'll just replace me without even caring. Sounds like she was a really interesting person. Yeah.

Steven Levy (12:44)
She was. You know what, Hamish, she did leave me with one thing that I've never forgotten. I haven't always implemented it, although I must tell you, I've started implementing it more intentionally now. So that was 1996. Okay, so I'm a bit of a slow learner. Yeah, a little while after that, but no, but I have.

intentionally started taking time out for myself, start listening to, I start listening to those signals, you know, when I'm struggling with something or mentally I'm talking about or feel tired or feel exhausted as I started listening to that. And, you know, there was something that always stuck with me, you know, because when I walked out, she said to me, she said, if there's one

you take away from here. She says just remember the most important appointment that you will ever make in your calendars with

And I've never forgotten that. I've only just started doing it. I hope she's not listening. So, yeah.

And I think a big thing, Hamish, is another add on to that is to actually take that time out that you need without feeling guilty.

That's a big thing because I would take it out and I think, maybe I should be working on this, maybe I should be at the office, maybe I should be... You're not really taking time out. You physically have stepped out, but mentally you're still in it. I think that... It's easier said than done, but once you do it, and like where I am right now, now I do it.

I was sitting in of my computer like this, because a lot of my work is on my laptop, which I'm extremely grateful for. But if I feel, as soon as I feel that I'm hitting this mental downer or the battery is really running low, I listen to myself. I'll close up my computer. I have three places in...

Durbanville, where I live, quite near, all within probably about 10 minutes of me. Three different places that I can choose, that I call my happy place. They are all coffee shops, but they're not busy places. They're just people there. It's a place where I can feel comfortable and I can go to and just, if I can say not think.

that I do take my laptop with, but my first few minutes that I'm there, I don't know, sometimes it's five, sometimes it's ten, sometimes it's fifteen, I don't know, that I'm there, I won't open my laptop. I give myself a chance to transition from the space that I left into the space that I'm going into. And it's just so amazing. And then when I do open my laptop and work, not always, but when I do,

I just seemed to get through the stuff that I was struggling with like this.

And that for me is important. actually that time out should be a part of our business strategy.

Hamish (16:10)
Absolutely. Yeah. And it's I think I love what you said. It's so important to listen to our bodies. Ten days ago, Thursday afternoon, Friday afternoon, Saturday afternoon, I was polaxed. I was absolutely exhausted. So I put myself to bed for a couple of hours every afternoon. And normally it's just like I'm wasting time. I should be doing this, should be doing that.

Steven Levy (16:10)
Or a last strategy, Hamish.

Hamish (16:40)
Come Monday morning, I had the busiest week I've ever had. I was on Zoom for hours a day doing this, doing courses, doing programs. I got to Friday, I could still stand up. It was so nice to realize that my body said, you need to sleep, matey, otherwise you're not gonna get through the week and there's a lot to learn. Yeah, I crashed over the weekend, that's fine. So it was that very much, you know, all the hard work, but I did the other side to try and get that harmony of it.

Steven Levy (17:05)
Yeah.

Hamish (17:08)
And I think, yeah, as you said, there's times we have to do that. We also have to stop and listen. And I'm getting better at that as well, slowly. I still feel pangs of guilt. yet that guilt is just self -imposed, isn't it? It is just self -imposed.

Steven Levy (17:15)
Yes.

Of

You know what, it's as you talk about that, you know, we have all these distractions, which is again, it's mental distractions. Like for example, that. Sorry. That's my cell phone. But that, you know, I'd find myself saying to, so I'm addicted to this.

And I find myself saying to people, saying, this bloody thing. But I actually had to think about that. This thing is actually pretty good. mean, like coming here today, I was stuck in traffic. I could get hold of Hamish, who's sitting on the other side of the world with this. To say to him, I'm stuck in traffic, I'm running a bit late. Okay. So this thing is good. It's not this bloody thing. It's this bloody thing.

that's addicted to this every time it pings or rings or beeps or something I feel the need to not even answer to look at

And it's crazy, it's crazy. So what I did is I decided that I'm now going to turn my data off permanently.

And so that means I can only use this or only get those pings and beeps and all that when I'm in a Wi -Fi area. And

Hamish (18:45)
Mm

Steven Levy (18:58)
to my disbelief, where my ego took a hell of a knock. Okay. Because I found out one day that for five hours I wasn't on, or four hours, I wasn't on my phone. And when I got into a Wi -Fi area at one of my happy spaces, then they all started coming through, all the WhatsApps. And I went through them, half of them were probably just chats on groups. There were probably two three of them that were really...

meaningful and needed to be answered but didn't need to be answered now. But the big thing when my ego took a knock is I discovered that the world didn't collapse without Steven Levy for five hours. Yeah, I was so hurt.

Hamish (19:41)
Really?

man, not the center of the universe.

Steven Levy (19:48)
Yeah. And I thought, wow, that's amazing. So we live in this fast -paced world, and I think we have this thing that, and I'm sure I'm not the only one, but even if I am, well then, well done to everybody else. I'm sure that the only one that has feels we have to answer as soon as I get a message, or we have to, you know, I have to respond now, and I have to actually discover that we don't. I'm not a doctor. So...

Yeah, so think we can manage ourselves in this, because it is a fast -paced world because of technology, so things have changed. But yeah, I think we can manage how we live in this fast -paced world. It makes us more efficient, the technology, we can do things in this town and so on, but it doesn't have to take up our time. We allow it all.

I allowed to. I allowed it to.

So,

Hamish (20:51)
I you're spot on. I I haven't, I turn my notifications off so it doesn't make that audible beep or vibrate because yeah, then at least I'm in control. So I just pick it up more often.

Yeah, I'll own that one.

Steven Levy (21:03)
Yeah, say again. Yeah, so you'll get there. It's like I say to people, know, they say, are you busiest? Yeah, I'm hell of a busy. So, but one day when I grow up, I'm going to be productive. You know, and it's like, we can all be busy. Can be busy 24 hours a day for one, two. Busy with what? We need to ask ourselves. So, yeah.

Hamish (21:18)
Absolutely. Yes.

Steven Levy (21:28)
So think that was, those were a of lessons. The other big one was when I went through depression in 2012. That was harsh for me.

What was the lesson that came? There were a couple, but the big lesson that came out of that for me was...

I got to a point where I had to do something about it, because otherwise it's just going down this freaking rabbit hole. And I got to this point where I still remember it very clearly. I was sitting in our lounge and I was lying on the couch feeling all sorry for myself, that the whole world was against even, you know, this victim.

mentality. I must say had great support from my brother and my sister. My sister flew to Cape Town to come see me. I'll tell you a story about that. But I was lying on the couch and was just like feeling all sorry for myself. And as I looked up, my daughter at that stage was about, what was she, 32, so, to 12 years old. So she was like 20, just probably second year varsity. But

There was a moment, I can still picture it, don't know why, our eyes just locked.

And it was that moment I thought, Steven, what are you doing? You may get your shit together, okay? Get, pull yourself right, and do something about this. And it was my sister who gave me the name of a clinical psychologist in Cape Town. And I phoned her, it was a Sunday night. And she said to me, and this is the lesson.

She said she managed to say that she would see me the next morning. I don't know if she had an opening or it because she knew my sister, but irrespective. But she said to me, come see me tomorrow and then we'll see if we get on. But even if we don't, she says, I must commend you as a South African male for picking up the phone and asking for help. And that was the big lesson for me because it was the best thing that I ever did.

spent six months with her. And now if you ask, I just, it's, need to, if we, we allow to, we should, and we need to ask for help when we need it. It's not a weakness. Again, it's another thing. think it's, I think it's being irresponsible if we're not. You know, if you're stuck,

in your vehicle or somewhere, we ask for help. But when we get stuck in our own lives, get in our own way, why is this thing that we don't want to ask for help? It's a question I ask myself, but I don't ask that anymore. I happily ask for help.

Hamish (24:36)
think that is a beautiful message because, yeah, we catastrophize, we wander, our worlds get smaller. I mean, I'm just going straight back to before I ask for help and everything gets smaller. You try and squeeze it together and, okay, men are conditioned or expected not to ask for help and have that mask on and be capable and stuff, but we're not. We're not capable all the time.

Steven Levy (25:03)
Yeah.

Hamish (25:05)
And when I asked for help, I finally asked for help. I asked somebody who I knew a little bit and he knew none of my friends. So much shame. And I said to him, look, I think I've got a problem. I think I've got a drinking problem. And he said, so? I went to rehab 18 years ago. Of all the people in the world I could pick, I picked someone who was an ex -alcoholic. I mean, thank you. And no judgment. So, you know, he didn't recriminate. He didn't say, whatever.

Steven Levy (25:23)
That's it.

Hamish (25:35)
And that was the start of my journey, but we have to. If I hadn't done that, who knows what would have happened. If you hadn't, you might have gone down my route, you might have done something stupid. It is irresponsible not to help, but we don't. Unfortunately, we don't because it's being fun and all. Yeah.

Steven Levy (25:47)
Yeah.

Yeah, we don't, so yeah. We conditioned, eh? I don't know what it is, Hamish. We conditioned like that. And it's, I think we need to check that, you We need to, we often, we need to check that. And you said something earlier, we need to, we need to be okay with the fact that we, we, we, somewhere along the line, we do need help.

we do need to ask for help. If we knew everything and were that good at everything, first of all, we wouldn't need each other. I think, you know, just to... It's funny, we're okay to ask for help with certain things, maybe these tangible material things, but when it comes to ourselves, you know, if my car is... I don't mind asking for help to put more petrol in my car when it's stuck.

I don't mind asking someone to check my battery because I think it's dying and I need to change it or recharge it. My car battery. I Steven's battery is so for some reason, so I value my car more than me. It is insane when I'm sitting and thinking and talking about it to you, I'm thinking, goodness me. And you know, I mean you, sure.

Hamish (27:01)
Yeah. Crazy, crazy, crazy.

Steven Levy (27:13)
better than anyone else, you know, you've walked that journey. And you know it's big standout for me and a lesson that also, that I learned from you was exactly that, it was about owning it. Because when you owned it, that's when you spoke out about it, but not to the world, spoke out about it for Hamish.

and then you can speak about it freely like today.

because you owned

Hamish (27:42)
Yeah. It is powerful. It is part of a healing process. It is opening the doors on all that shame and just saying, I acted like a numpty. I did all sorts of stupid things and I can carry on beating myself for the rest of my life or I can realize that I've changed. I don't need to do that anymore. But I had no idea how to do that until I asked for help.

Steven Levy (27:48)
Yes.

Yes, exactly, exactly.

Hamish (28:11)
and that yeah it's it was the hardest thing i ever did absolutely was

Steven Levy (28:18)
How did you feel if you don't mind me asking how did you After you asked for help. I know it's the hardest thing to ask.

Hamish (28:27)
How did I feel?

No, I won't use that expression. I felt that I had absolutely been let off the hook. Totally and unconditionally. All that, I don't want to tell anyone, so ashamed, so embarrassed. And then, so what? Okay, well, let's chat. know, it was like everything that I had stacked on my head, I didn't need to. He just said, so what? You know, I had just...

Steven Levy (28:51)
Yeah.

Hamish (28:56)
built it up into a monster when really it was a little breeze. So yeah, I just couldn't believe it. I don't think I cried then. A couple of hours later, I was in floods of tears going down the west coast towards Comiky and beyond. yeah, was... Just everything changed. I had opened a door and stepped through and left everything behind.

Steven Levy (29:17)
Yeah, I suppose. Hmm.

Hamish (29:24)
Obviously I had to go to rehab and make a sense of things, I'd left all that shame... No, I hadn't. I'd left all that preconceived fear behind. Yeah.

Steven Levy (29:34)
Yeah. Yeah. Because you asked for her. Because you took ownership or responsibility for where you were.

Hamish (29:48)
That's a bit noble. I had two choices. It was either drink, drive, crash, kill, or get sober. I'd come down to two choices. And I took the one that I wanted. I wanted to live. So I had to, yeah, I did take ownership. I had to choose one. So yes, I did. Thank you.

Steven Levy (30:04)
Amazing.

Yeah. So it's not, it's not, because you still had a choice. Some of us just choose, maybe could have chosen to stay the other road to the easier route.

Hamish (30:17)
Yeah. Yeah.

Steven Levy (30:22)
not necessarily the right drift but the easier route.

Hamish (30:25)
Absolutely.

Steven Levy (30:28)
Especially, and I say that with respect, I mean you can comment on that more than me, but it's like...

It's not easy to... because when you're in it, you know, it's like your... it's like your kind of security net, know, whatever you're using. it's alcohol, drugs, trippin... But any of those like things that you're using is become... whatever you use becomes your... So it's not easy just to let it go. Yeah.

Hamish (31:03)
crutch.

Steven Levy (31:04)
But yeah, think it is, it's pretty liberating. Maybe it's something that we all need to go through, I don't know. I don't know why, but maybe it's something we need to go through, it's a lesson.

Hamish (31:21)
I think people go through all sorts of awakenings and making sense. Because I mean, you certainly have, haven't you? know, when you were, when you became aware of that impending burnout, you had to, you had to make a decision, am I going to carry on that pigheaded South African maleness or am I going to change? And I had to do the same. Other people on the podcast have come to

Steven Levy (31:25)
Yes, awake. I love you all to talk to your brother, to waking

Hamish (31:50)
that fork in the road and had to make that decision. And it is scary because all that familiar, that alcohol kept me safe. That first glass, fantastic, no more cares, no more anything to give. But my heart was just breaking every time. And so was my spirit, everything and my body, you it just laid down. And it was, I had to make that choice. I had to own it, as you said.

Steven Levy (31:59)
Yes.

Depends.

I think it's in that you mentioned something also, it's that want. How much do I want? How much do I want it? You know, because I think it's only when we want it enough, that we will, we'll kind of do something about it, or step out of that proverbial comforts, or that zone that we think is comfortable. But it's not really. But it's safe.

Hamish (32:46)
It's safe. Yeah. That's where you've nailed it. I mean, I would hope nobody has to get to the depths that I did. A lot of people have got worse. You know, I'd hope no one got to the depths that you did. A lot of people do that burnout and it is that awareness. is that, you know, the scared and then when it suddenly becomes, actually want to, I'm going to have to face that scared or I'm going to have to face that boss or that addiction or whatever.

Yeah.

Steven Levy (33:16)
Yeah, I think it's just, it's that funny thing called life.

I suppose that's how we grow and learn. If I look back at some of the stupid things I've but some of them were fantastic. They were fantastically stupid.

Hamish (33:23)
Absolutely

Yeah.

Steven Levy (33:40)
I mean, I'm still, yeah, so things I don't know, but it's, some of them were close call, but yeah, I think the big thing is what we've been chatting about is what are the lessons? Because if you take a lesson from it, and then I suppose that's where our growth comes from. You know, if you don't take a lesson, then you just keep going south.

Hamish (34:10)
the same pattern. So what did you do then when this doctor said to you, Steven you need to think about making some changes? What did you do to reassess that direction to obviously make those life changes? What did you decide to do?

Steven Levy (34:12)
Yeah.

I thought, where's this doctor now? No, it made me think I had to really consciously give thought to just re -look at the... not really look at my life, look at the way I was living it.

and saying, are you going to kind of adjust or tweak? Because it's not big adjustments that one has to make. know, certain, I think, maybe probably behavioral habits that you need to change. This thing that I need to be at my factory every evening to lock up. But yet I've got a factory manager.

And there were one or two other people that could have locked up. But no, Steven's out there, what does he do? Drive all the way back to the factory. I don't know, is it a control thing? Because I've got to lock up. mean, how amazing is that I locked the door? And so I think that's the other way. I think it's just about what do need to stop doing?

and also honoring myself. That really made me have a look at what I truly value.

and then understanding how am I living that, those values. Because if I tell you I truly value family, which I do, does my behavior align to how much I value it? And at that stage, the answer was no. Yes, it was before my family, because I'm looking after the business, yes, that's what generated our income and living.

But, if you have to ask, not at the expense of my family, and it nearly was. It's... I mean my wife was my absolute rock.

She's even still with me. Yeah, 39 years. So that's, think, yeah, her mission, honestly, I think it made me really re -look at what I value and how am I aligned to it in terms of living it. Because just to have a set of values, I think is...

Just to have it as a checkbox exercise means absolutely nothing.

But when you have them and they're real, those core things that you've re -ripped out, boy, you're to rip your heart out. I think that's important. So I learned also the power of values and heart, because I don't walk around telling people, I value health, I value respect, I value personal development, I value... They will see it in my behavior.

If Hamish says to me, Steven, let's go out on Thursday night and I said, no, I've got training because I'm really looking after my health in whatever way or form. I said, but I'll tell you what, I'll either see you afterwards or maybe tomorrow we'll get together, but I really need to go and train. So immediately, I'm telling you how much I value my health.

I don't say to you that health is a value of mine, it's through my behavior, my actions.

And they're great things to learn too.

great reference point for when we're not when we're living them. When we're living them, it's easy. I don't need to check in on them. It's when I'm not living them. Because, you know, I don't know if you've experienced that, when you're not living your land to what you truly value, you'll feel uneasy. And we need to then sometimes just stop and question that or again unpack that and see what is this about.

Hamish (38:41)
Yep. Yeah. I remember doing that with you. You asked me to look at my values, what was important. And you gave me a list of a piece of paper with lots of values on it. You were gobsmacked when I ripped it all up and then put them down on the floor and made sense of it. absolutely, because I am now living aligned to my values, my heart and what's important.

Steven Levy (38:41)
and the odds will come.

Yes.

Hamish (39:07)
And I look in the mirror and these things are shining. Five years ago, they were like holes. And that I know what's important. And if it's scary, because I know what's important, it's becoming effortless. It's not easy, necessarily. I still get out of my comfort zone. But Hamish's compass is pointing that way now. And yeah, that exercise in what is valuable, valuable.

Steven Levy (39:10)
Yeah.

Hamish (39:35)
That exercise in what is my values, what is important to me, really helped me make sense of things. I got a sense of purpose back really, which I didn't have. I I loved what I did. Yeah, I think that's really powerful.

Steven Levy (39:45)
Mmm.

Yeah, you love what you do, but you're not just coasting along in it. You know, you go out and actually do something towards it. And I think, I think that's in, that's important, you know, and there's just, we've, I feel just very blessed to be on this journey of growth and experience.

It's a bit of a messed up world that we live in, but it's a wonderful world. Make what you like of that statement. But it is because we still have so much to be grateful for. I even say like, and I'm talking about small things like even waking up in the morning and getting, and you're still alive, you're breathing.

You know, we just, we forget about that. We take it for granted.

But sure, I've seen a couple of my colleagues who didn't wake up the next morning. Certainly through COVID. And guys that are friends of mine that I speak to, long -time friends that are really, really suffering with like terminal illnesses. It's just, he said

There were three of us and he said on Saturday night, he said to myself and the other friend, said, I'm telling you, if I can give you guys a running, so this guy's got that stage four cancer.

And he says he could have picked it up early.

But he put these pains that he was feeling and everything, he didn't go and get it checked out, he just put it down to stress. in his business. But I think it was about a year later, he went and got it checked out, but then it was already too late.

That's it. You guys need to go for a check up once you're at least.

getting so young.

Hamish (42:11)
Yep, I'll just do it next week. I'll just do it next month. Yeah, suddenly it's three years later.

Steven Levy (42:15)
Yeah, exactly. Yeah. I mean, just look at this year.

I mean, goodness, we already knocked out the August. It's insane. It's just gone. It's

Hamish (42:23)
Bye.

Steven Levy (42:29)
But I think, you know, I think people that go through things like, like, like, like what you went through, what I went through, what my mates going through, all on different levels, different skills, but whatever it is, I think listening to, like listening to you, listening to my mate, it kind of puts things a little bit in perspective for us.

You know, it's not safe because he, because of where he is, I mean, he doesn't drink a riozo. He had a cup of tea, either brandy or Coke. Coke Zero. Very important. Brandy's got like 10 times the amount of sugar that Coke's got, but Coke Zero made me feel better. So, yeah, it's just... I've lost my train of thought now.

Why did I say that? That he

Hamish (43:22)
It's all around the importance of looking after yourself and making sense of things and the journey that we're on.

Steven Levy (43:28)
And it puts things in perspective. I drove home and I thought, well, it made me think a bit. If you want to do things, you need to do it.

You know, it's incredible. So I really think that sometimes these things happen to us. We don't see it at the time. But there was something that I keep next to my bed from my late mom. And without going through it in its entirety, it's in a little frame. The paper in the frame is yellowed. It's so old. But it's something that says that we

God doesn't always give us what we want. He generally gives us what we need.

That's true.

Hamish (44:13)
Absolutely. Reading in between the lines of what you said there. So if we are able to look at everything that happens and rather go, it happened, but what can I learn from it? Then you're generating some magic, aren't you?

Steven Levy (44:30)
Yes. Yeah. Absolutely. I think so. Yeah. You know, we've, but we have to continuously ask ourselves those questions and be honest with ourselves because there's still plenty of times that I don't live a line to my values. That you can feel, I can feel it when I'm not. I'm just, I might not be sure which one, but I'll go and check it

is one out of the top five or six that will just say that's it.

Generally you're right, know, it's like your instinct. How many times have you trusted your instinct and been wrong?

We don't trust that.

a lot. But I think life's fascinating. It's you know, if I look, it's not always the diners, like, I mean, one thing that I remember, so clearly, was in 86 when I had ... 85, I think, or 86, around two oceans and 86 around the Comrits. And I just had a

absolute clear vision of what Kings Park and Derby do, even though I've never been there.

And I knew what it looked like and I even had a clear visual of, you know, the digital camera, the finish line, with the time on that I wanted to achieve. But then, for those six to eight months, you know, I really trained.

No fancy foods, no alcohol at all. And if I look back, there was actually a tonne life that I really enjoyed.

I don't know if it's...

smooth

I think it's just the lesson of just being conscious of what you're doing and how is it impacting you and actually not only you, you and others, those around you. Because you said earlier, you know, if we don't do anything about it, then we're really selfish.

So, yeah, I don't know

So there's a good lesson, it's when I ran to Cormorant, that was a lesson from success, because I achieved the time that I wanted to. But the lesson from that was, if you are willing, sorry we were talking about the want, if you wanted that bad, that you're willing to make the sacrifice for it, or do any doing or attacks, then you

you know, then it's a good... then it's a good... then you'll do it and then they're good lessons from it. But I think exactly what you said is, how much do you want it?

You you got to a point where you stuck. You said you had, well, you did have a choice. You just wanted the other one badly, with more than, sorry, you you just wanted the other one more than the other one. Thank God.

Hamish (47:25)
That, I...

Yeah, and I think that is so sorry I keep on interrupting.

But I think that is so important though, isn't it? Once you've made that decision, go for it. Running the comrades, remind me how far that is. Remind me how much effort is required for that. Because it's not just a little marathon, is it?

Steven Levy (47:47)
Yeah.

No, it's 90 kilometers. it's... And you know, you can, it doesn't matter how well prepared you are, or how fit you are, on the day, anything can, over that distance, anything can go wrong, which it did. Not, not that I actually had a good run. So it was my, it was a good day for me.

The group of guys I trained with, my mates, some of them had the run, some cough, muscle injuries, just... just wasn't their day. They were... it wasn't that they had trained any less or any... or prepared themselves any less than I did, or sacrificed as... we all, we trained together. So, there were great lessons. One of the lessons was... for me is that...

Don't, if you've got a goal, don't ever... How much do you want it? And don't even not believe that you will achieve it. And some people are going to say, but she's that simple, but unrealistic. Don't believe that you can not achieve. Make peace of the fact that you might not achieve the outcomes that you want on the day. But in your preparation work.

Not once when I was training for comrades did I ever think, sure, I'm not going to, I just trained. No, if I carry on training like this, because at those days I read Bruce Fordhouse's book and he was the king of comrades then. So I thought, okay, well, who better to learn from?

So I stuck to a training regime and I thought, okay, well, if you... You know what is funny in that book, Hamish? He said your 90k comrade will be determined by your 8k time trial.

I'm thinking that this guy's on drugs. And he was right.

So I think sometimes also who we seek help or advice from is also important.

Hamish (50:03)
No, absolutely. I'm just looking back to your going for something, seeking for something, setting a... I'm going to start that again because that's a lisp. I'm going back to your setting that goal and a target. After I left university, I decided I wanted to get into the TV industry and I went down to London, back again, down to London for six months. I went down to London pretty much twice a month.

I want to get into the TV industry. Interviews, conversations, meetings, free work. I got the job. Eventually I got that job that I wanted and that took me around the world. I made TV, I did documentaries, but I had to do that. I had sacrifice getting a job at home. I had part -time stuff so I could get down to London when I was called.

Steven Levy (50:42)
Amazing.

Hamish (50:52)
worth the effort, worth the sacrifice, worth that hard work and sweat, blood and tears and frustration. Yeah, it's...

Steven Levy (50:55)
too.

I think it's... you know, we all have good and bad habits. We'll change those bad habits when we want to, or when we want to enough.

Hamish (51:16)
Yeah.

Steven Levy (51:16)
And I think that's like anything. I look at these brave men and women that climb Everest. And I don't think about what is it that makes you want to go up there. The risk is death. They want it more than death.

Hamish (51:35)
Thank

Steven Levy (51:38)
So it's that, yeah, that want, how much do I want it? Well, that's the first one. And then the second one is, if I wanted that bad, be like the example I gave you, how much are you prepared to do what it takes to get it?

I think that's the trick.

Hamish (51:56)
then also thinking about it, you wanted that job to work. You put all those hours into it to make it work, to build it up and that was your want and then someone said, you know, do you want your family? Just like, hell yeah, I want them even more. So you had that, you know, you, I don't think you can be too rigid on anything because you've just got to keep, well, keep aware, isn't it?

Steven Levy (52:19)
Yeah. I think that awareness helps you deal with those changes or those unexpected changes or those unexpected challenges that come along. It's very much about your awareness.

And I think when you are that self aware of what you do, with the understanding that not everybody will do it your way, is great.

It really is. So yeah, think, you know, you asked the story, there's so many life lessons that I could share.

I mean, where do you stop? Because there's so much learning. It's amazing.

Hamish (53:12)
Okay, then we'll...

Steven Levy (53:13)
Those learning opportunities, those lows, those great learning opportunities, and we need to seek them out and embrace them.

Hamish (53:23)
Okay, then so here's one for you. We've got people listening to the show and they are working hard, working very hard. They've got that balance wrong. How would you encourage them to spot that or understand that I'm working, I'm working, I'm working, I've got a goal, but family's slipping, personal health is slipping?

Steven Levy (53:25)
Yes.

Hamish (53:47)
the gym slipping, the drinking is going up. There's that lack of balance. How would you encourage someone to spot things like

Steven Levy (53:58)
I think very much be in touch with yourself. And if you haven't done that, first of all, we have to check in, know, what is this, if I'm not, it'll send out its own signal because purely by the fact that they might ask themselves, Jesus, I'm not happy here in this space. It's not that I can do anything about it. We know.

You know, we know, I've been out on a drinking spree. Do you think, I, you know, because I enjoy my running and my swimming, I know it's stupid. I say to myself, Steven, you're yourself up and I'll just, and I'll carry on. So I think we know, we just got to.

Do we have the courage to honor ourselves?

And whatever that is, just... and then maybe it might require just standing out from the crowd and being really truthful to yourself.

You don't have to lose friends, don't have to lose people. Because when you do, when you get to that level

of understanding and awareness, I think that it's easier because you're able to communicate it. It's easier to deal with the crowd and just, know, down the skies, enjoying your company, happy with what I've got, having my coke, I'm not going to you. I'm saying there's anything wrong with having a drink and that, but...

It's... yeah. I think the big thing is... that level of self -awareness and being... listening to your body. When you're feeling out of sorts, there's a reason.

And it might not always be somebody else, it might be yourself.

our egos might say something external.

But, you know, it really is. Who was it? Louise Hayes. Louise Hayes, have you read her book that Healing Yourself or something? I can't remember the thing, but you know, she says disease is exactly that, it's a dis -ease.

When you feel that this is, it's something that you are not aligned to. So, I would just say to people, know, just take, when you're feeling uneasy about something, step back. What we would like, we were talking about earlier. Stick back and kind of have a look at it, what is happening. And, but it will require you to be honest with yourself. And if you're not happy with it, do something about it.

And if you're not doing something about it, then you're too comfortable with being uncomfortable.

Hamish (57:04)
Yeah, yeah, I love that. is. It's accountability and a bit of self responsibility, isn't it? And that is uncomfortable, but it's yeah, you've got choices. Yeah, stay suffering or make a change.

Steven Levy (57:10)
Hmm.

Yeah, exactly. Yeah. But to know to make the changes, it's not always easy. But again, it comes back to the change that what is the outcome I'm looking for and the change that I want to make. I'm not prepared to do what it takes to get there.

Hamish (57:36)
Yeah, I think I think you've absolutely nailed it there. And it's when you give it some structure and form, you know, it is scary. But what do you want? If you can get that end goal, and you can see that it makes it you've got a frame of reference. I'm here, I want to get to there. And then suddenly, that potential becomes possible, doesn't it rather than I'm unhappy? Well, I'm unhappy. I'm unhappy, you know.

Steven Levy (58:01)
Hmm. So I just sound happy. I mean, you just... Yeah. Yeah. It's like Google Maps. If we speak into the... I don't come out of the tech world, but I do understand Google Maps at least. it's like, you know, if

Hamish (58:05)
And when you've got a target, yeah.

Steven Levy (58:26)
If I come over to the UK and say, hey me shits, we're going to meet for coffee. And you say to me, okay, Steven, let's meet at the local coffee shop and I'll send you the address. No, just give me, give me the pin location. I'll get there. I'll tell you how to get there. No, give me the pin location. So I put the pin location in and I open my Google Maps. And the first thing it asked me is where you're going.

And the second great thing you want to know is what's your current location because unless it's got those two points, you're not going to find out how I'm going to get the best route to get there. So we need to know where we're going. And then, then I have a choice. How much do I want to get there? And I've got to just get in my car and drive there and I'll meet Hamish.

Hamish (59:09)
Yep. And I remember you said it might be like that, but it might be like that. And it might be it might be like that to get it. I remember you telling that to me. It's not necessarily the you don't know the journey. You've got the destination, but it might not be a straight line.

Steven Levy (59:26)
Sure. But at least I know, so even if you come back to the Google Maps analogy, it's like, so now I'm on my way to you and there's for some reason another roadblock or, you know, I have to make a detour. I don't phone you and say I'm not coming to see you. I'll just phone you and say, or WhatsApp you and say, I'm going to be still being there at 2 .30, I'm going to be there at 3

but I still care to

But yeah, it's lot easier said than done. It comes back to, think, understanding who you are. And what is it that energizes you? And what is it that makes you tick? And what is it that makes you do things the way you do? Because we can both have the same outcome that we try to achieve, but we will do it differently. Because I can never be Hamish, and Hamish can never be Steven.

And you know, it's hard, it's hard enough being yourself. Why would you want to try and be someone else?

but we do that. mean flip, I've done it. So, and sometimes I still do. I just catch myself a lot

Hamish (1:00:40)
think that's it, isn't it? It doesn't become easier. We just get better at it. It does not become easier.

Steven Levy (1:00:45)
Yes, represent, I represent. So yeah, but that's what makes this whole journey of love so fascinating. And you've actually, just, you know, Hamish, I must tell you, just a line, just chatting about it has, it's just amazing.

We've probably had these chats a million times, but every time you change it, it's just that reminder, you know? We need that bit of a refresher to say, actually, you know what? It's not that bad, You know? Well, just get on with it. Go and do it.

just own it or, you know, we need those, we all know about it. But sometimes we need to do it and just talking about it is amazing. So honestly, I think what you're doing and allowing people to speak in a safe space, just that in itself will help. It's immense value

to people because sometimes that's all they need to do, just speak.

You know, not even look for the... They might not even be looking for you to give them answers. They just want to speak. I I've said in a coaching session where people have, believe it or not, said, I've said hardly anything. And... Yeah. And someone just said, that was amazing. And I'm thinking, I say a word, hardly, I said five words. No. Thank you for listening.

Hamish (1:02:30)
I think that's so important isn't it when you can make space for listening to people. So many people do not get listened to.

Steven Levy (1:02:36)
Yes.

Yeah, you're right. It's... Yeah, it's a big thing. I don't think we realize that it's the power of listening.

You know, we always feel we have to... if someone is feeling out of sorts or not, or has got a bit of a problem, suddenly, we feel we need to have an answer for them, not always. Sometimes we just got to listen to them. In talking they'll find their own answer. Or just to get it off their chest. That might be all that's required.

We're a fascinating bunch.

Hamish (1:03:20)
We really are, aren't we? Our own worst enemy and our own success stories and everything in between. It is. Yeah. I wouldn't want to change much.

Steven Levy (1:03:28)
Yeah, and it's exciting. Sometimes it's hair raising, but...

Yeah, exactly. And we have to go through those things to really appreciate the value of whatever that lesson is.

Hamish (1:03:50)
Yeah, I think so too. Well, Steven, this has been a fabulous conversation. It's been lovely to catch up, lovely to hear your laid back laconic wisdom and your thoughts and just chew the cud a bit with you. Yeah, no, it's been fab.

Steven Levy (1:03:58)
Yeah, thank you.

No, and thank you Hamish for chatting. Thank you and well done to you because you're a great inspiration. And it's so awesome that you're doing what you love. And you know, you're just giving so many people in the world the opportunity to maybe do what you did. You're giving them permission to do that and you're showing

if they really want to there is a bright side.

Hamish (1:04:41)
They're absolutely it.

Steven Levy (1:04:42)
wherever you are. So yeah, I salute you. Well done. And it's so nice to see you loving what you're doing.

Hamish (1:04:50)
Thank you very much.

I absolutely am yeah. Steven where can people find out more about you, your what you do and how you serve people?

Steven Levy (1:05:05)
CNN, Sky, no, I'm kidding. No, that wonderful little platform called LinkedIn.

I can't spell my LinkedIn link, but they can find my other... other... just type in my name, which was Steven with a V, and then L -E -V -Y. Well, I must try this, because the social media lady that I'm working with, she's... I didn't know that, but LinkedIn has a business page, so now I've got dare to be on my business page, they can even...

I've still got to make the shift, but I'll figure that out. Yeah, it's the same

I do, I'm probably more active on LinkedIn, just because of the, you know, the space that I'm operating. I'm not a big, and I'm not really, my wife's a big Facebook fan, and I'm not. So, I go and look at it now and again, with the notification pops up, but I do post on it.

So the post that I do that at Motivational Monday, I post across all three platforms. But I think the right space for me is LinkedIn. And then my websites, they're dare to be D -A -R -E, numerical number two, B

Hamish (1:06:36)
Brilliant.

Steven Levy (1:06:36)
That's the other side, So, yes. If they want to chat or want to do anything, just have a chat. It's awesome. But I would recommend to them that they connect with you, because you give them the space to chat.

Hamish (1:06:39)
Thank you. Well,

Thank you very

Steven Levy (1:06:55)
and you're gonna challenge them.

Hamish (1:06:57)
Absolutely. Yep.

Steven Levy (1:06:59)
Yes, you're going to challenge them to speak about the things that they maybe don't want to speak about and you're going to play it to other, for the people, others to hear. So, yeah, I think that's a, it's a great thing. I suppose they can come and chat and we just chat here. Eventually, hopefully the outcome is that they'll be able

Again, I don't want to risk repeating myself, earn it, but you're doing the same thing. We just probably do it through different vehicles, but you're doing it the same

Hamish (1:07:35)
Thank you for that. That's very kind. And most importantly, the last question. What is the superpower you got from making sense of that change you had to do courtesy of that shrink in Wits University?

Steven Levy (1:07:40)
Yes.

superpower. I don't know if this is correct. I've had this superpower. What is my superpower? I think it's the ability and humbly, okay, guide and support people on their journey to discovering themselves and just unleashing that uniqueness that they have in you. And I always say, you know what the best thing is? Just

To allow them to be, I'll tell you what my superpower, and I'll actually, here's a bit of advertising, but it's true. Okay, dare to be you. I allow people to dare to be themselves.

Hamish (1:08:37)
Perfect. Perfect. think that is...

Steven Levy (1:08:39)
Yeah, because I had to do that and that's exactly where the name came from on my practice. Because I had to go on that journey of self -discovery and I had to dare to be me.

So, yeah, and I would love to allow people or challenge them to dare to be themselves because when you are, when you do, and I'm still on the journey, it's so liberating.

Hamish (1:08:54)
Brilliant.

Steven Levy (1:09:08)
So nice to be yourself. Not everybody else agrees, but I...

Hamish (1:09:11)
Wonderful. I think that is a great one. Dare to be yourself. And I think that is so powerful because I find myself saying that when I'm talking to be just people dare to be yourself. And every time I say that, yeah, you spring to mind.

Steven Levy (1:09:23)
P .U.

And it actually, you know what it does, know, Hamish, and I don't know if you experienced this. Because that's what you are asking people to do on your podcast. But there's also great, great, I get my greatest lessons from my clients. Because sometimes I have to, after a session, go back and check and say, Steven, are you doing this?

So it's a great job. It's wonderful.

Hamish (1:09:54)
Thank so much for today. I've enjoyed it. It's been really, really precious. Really, really super to catch up with you. So thank you so much.

Steven Levy (1:09:57)
Thank you.

Thank you. We will be in touch. And yeah, keep doing what you're doing and make a difference in the world.

Hamish Niven (1:10:12)
Thank you for listening to this episode of The Crucible: Conversations for the Curious. If these powerful stories of transformation resonated with you, be sure to like, subscribe and share this show with anyone who you think could do with a dose of inspiration for their own journey. I would really appreciate it if you could make any comments on your favourite podcast platform as well, that helps me reach more people. All the important links and information are in the show notes below. Thank you very much for listening and catch up with you soon.