The Crucible:Conversations for the Curious

Hamish Niven (00:01)
Welcome to The Crucible, Conversations for the Curious. I am Hamish, your host. This podcast is for anyone going through awakenings, trying to make sense of life. Whether dark nights are the soul, needing to make life -changing decisions, struggling with addiction or critical illness, or simply realizing that their life as they know it is not aligned to values and purpose. You are not alone. You can get through this, promise you. Life is far more beautiful on the other side.

Hamish (00:29)
Hi everybody and welcome to another edition of the Crucible Conversations for the Curious. Today we're chatting with Cindy and she runs a couple of spiritual communities, one here in the UK and one in South Africa. Cindy, thanks ever so much for turning up this morning. Can you tell me a little bit about your journey and your awakening?

Cindy Holmes (00:47)
Hamish, that's a very big question. And it comes from, I think there are two parts to the story of my spiritual awakening. The first part of kind of, you could call it season one and maybe season two of the spiritual awakening. So season one, I was...

Hamish (01:11)
It's a waste of time.

Cindy Holmes (01:17)
just to give a little background to myself in terms of like, what is my pedigree? Where did I come from? Came from five star hotels, hospitality industry. You know, we work hard, we play hard and we have a lot of fun, but we also don't really understand the word of self -care or taking care of our physical, our emotional.

our mental or our spiritual bodies. It's very much a busy industry where you, you know, where I think it's called self abuse. And I think the industry lends itself to that. I think things are changing slowly today, but in those days, you know, the longer you worked and the harder you work, kind of the more recognized you were. And then the harder you played and the harder you drank.

also kind of slotted into to your success. So coming from a strong hospitality industry, I ran a, I was the operations director of a chain of restaurants in London at the time. And one of our friends got liver cancer and this liver cancer, she was 32 years old.

We were a group of South Africans and unfortunately there were no kind of adults around. You know, London can be a very transitioned and you know, people transition through London. And so we were just a group of young people. There were no adults, there were no, and at the age of 32 and this friend of ours at the age of 32 had liver cancer and within nine months passed away and died.

And it was really, and we were making lots of decisions. I'm talking about 25, nearly 30 years ago, 25 years ago. And kind of we were doing the best we could. In those days, the research for cancer is not what it is today. Young person, the doctors were just throwing masses of chemotherapy at our friend. And I watched this person.

pass away. It also so happened that at the time, kind of being, I was the oldest and the most responsible of the friends. There was lots of decisions. We also had to very quickly organize a Jewish funeral. We were in the gay community. So that was also quite challenging. And after we arranged this funeral, I came out of my body, my spirit, my spirit came out of my body and I kind of

didn't know how to get back. I think there was the trauma, the, you know, the understand or the lack of understanding of what had happened. And so as a result of that, I spoke to somebody at work. There was a beautiful French lady and I said to her, can you give me some insight into me being out of my body? Do you know someone, a shaman who can help me? Prior to that,

didn't want to know anything spiritual. The only spirit I knew was the one in the whiskey bottle. And and kind of so if I ever saw like a fortune teller at a festival or a fair or on Brighton Pier I would walk to the opposite side. There was something that terrified me around spirituality. I also had a mother who wasn't religious but always called it hocus pocus.

and really, you know, didn't have any, you know, that it was a load of rubbish basically. So being out of my body was confusing, but fortunately there was Dadu who I went to and I went to see a spiritual healer and the most extraordinary thing happened to me. I went to go and see her, she was in North London, laid down on her healing couch and she put her hands onto me and she brought my spirit back into my body and as she did that, kind of the room.

filled with the angelic realm. And you know you hear and read stories about angel feathers and feeling angels. Well, the angels were as clear to me that day as you are sitting on the screen right now. And it blew me away. I mean, it was a really, really unbelievable experience. And also quite a frightening experience because it was something completely new to me. This was like

did this happen? So I kind of dabbled a little bit in spirituality but in the meantime I was really kind of finding life difficult to integrate. There'd been this test of this friend and what I do know is through a couple of upsets with relationships I was getting my solace in the whiskey bottle and that was after

beers to start the wine at dinner and then kind of ending off with you know washing it down with a you know half a bottle of scotch and

I kind of was really at a place where I didn't know where I belonged, I didn't know where I fitted in. So that's kind of series one around this confusion. And then the universe did something at the time which felt really, really challenging. And so that was like a mini spiritual awakening. I knew these spirits were here and I knew what was going on.

But I happened to go to Dadu one night, the French lady who had sent me to the spiritual healer and we had a couple of beers and then we had a couple of bottles of wine and then we chased that with whiskey and I was the director of this restaurant business. I had a six -week -old brand new Mercedes Benz, beautiful compressor. I was the business, right? Anyway.

I decided that I wanted to be at home and I drove home from Dadu's and I drove all over the road and when I stopped the car outside my flat there were a couple of sirens, someone had reported me driving recklessly, I was arrested and I spent my dark night of the soul in jail.

It was a, for me, it was a very difficult, I'd never been in trouble with the law. I was a hard worker, I was the director of a company, I was responsible for 800 people. I followed licensing laws, I followed employment laws. I was a goody two shoes, it just, I played hard as far as I was concerned. So this night in jail, completely.

for what wasn't broken through my behaviors just completely sent me into a terrible spiral and actually it was the best thing that ever happened in my life because first of all the

The lawyer that I spoke to had said to me I needed to get a psychologist on board because it was a good chance. I mean, I was that much over the limit. And for those of you in South Africa, like you go to jail here, they don't mess around or you don't pay somebody a bit of cash and move on. There's no bribery and corruption when it comes to the law and drinking. And my lawyer said to me, you know, there was a good chance I was going to go to Holloway prison.

The shame was absolutely, the shame within myself was extraordinary. Anyway, he said I need to get a letter from a psychologist to say I was in a process that I was focusing on my drinking. I just thought I was a heavy drinker. I had no idea that this was, I knew it was controlling my life at some level. Anyway, I went to the psychologist and she said to me,

actually I have a problem with people with alcohol I can't give you this letter because I don't feel it's right and I was like I pleaded I said I need this for court I promise you I'll find somebody else and she went well and actually she gave me the letter but I was even more shame really felt the shame because now I couldn't even get a letter to represent me as a human being anyway

In a divine way, I was guided to the College of Psychic Studies in South Kensington in London. And there was a leaflet around an angel weekend, you know, angel and guides weekend being held just outside London.

And I signed up for it. And I know it sounds weird, but that was the start of my spiritual journey. And from there, the person who facilitated the course had a master's in psychotherapy. I then also became a student at the College of Psychic Studies. And here I am today, the director of the school of...

the International School of Intuition and Healing running an organization facilitating spiritual workshops on mediumship, healing, psychic development, astrology, tarot card, mediumship. And if you told me back then that I would be having this conversation to you, I would have laughed, completely laughed. So.

It didn't happen overnight, it was a long journey. I worked with a psychotherapist, this woman, for two years.

that awakening and the shock of that chain. The other thing around that chain was I needed to do a hundred hours community service. So, and I didn't, they took my license away for about three and a half years. I never saw my beautiful, I never drove my beautiful Mercedes Benz again. And so, and so, yeah, I didn't lose my job because fortunately the CEO of the company had

being caught drink driving himself. So he was completely sympathetic at the time. But this journey of, and then also the judge rather than putting me in jail gave me a hundred hours community service where I had to go and stand outside Sainsbury's in my orange jumper every Saturday morning.

And that Dark Night of the Soul I am so grateful for and I know that sounds weird but I am really grateful that the universe

did that in order for me to be who I am today.

Hamish (12:36)
Thank you. It's, wow, there's a lot there to digest. I'm not quite sure where, yes, I do know where to start. Can we start when you were dragged off to the prison because you said that is when you sat there and thought and mulled over and, you know, we'll touch on shame in a minute, but that's when you really had to.

stop and look at your life. Tell me about that process of looking at what was not going right for you and what was happening, what you were thinking.

Cindy Holmes (13:16)
So that night, I think I was still quite drunk, but I think it was the process between that going to court and then having to do things like in order to reduce my, how long my license was suspended, I had to go and do an eight week drink drive course. And then also,

you know, spending their time doing what I call gardening club because I reframed it rather than community service. I mean.

I think for me I realised that...

that my life was really just numb. Everything in my life had to be numb. Like I wasn't really dealing with relationships in a very constructive way. I wasn't necessarily dealing with, I wasn't taking care of myself. I think I was smoking something like 40 cigarettes a day. And I was living on the edge all the time. It was, you know, from

from waking up with a hangover and then drinking coffee and then just repeating the cycle over and over again and just this lack of respect for my body. I often say that at the time I did a lot of research into relationships. I mean, I was having really a hectic time around relationships. I was hurting people, I was hurting myself.

And it was just a mess. Life was a mess. I mean, one thing that I did keep and I'm really grateful for that is I was still able, because of the industry I was in and it was almost acceptable to start drinking at lunchtime. It was almost acceptable to drink and drive and that was okay. So I was very lucky that I was in an industry that kind of supported it in a way. So I'd never lost my job. I didn't.

that I was able to keep. But the shame of, yeah, just this unmanageability of everything. My finances weren't great. And just, I was numbing my energy. I was numbing my sexuality. I was numbing everything around myself and really not.

not taking responsibility or accountability for my behaviour or my actions.

Hamish (15:51)
Mm. Yeah. Completely, completely relate. I worked in the TV industry for a long time and that's the same kind of thing. It is work hard and play harder. And it, it was okay to have to do a wide shot because if you held the camera on a zoom, it would shake too much because you were hung over. It was, it's unfortunate in retrospect that that lifestyle exists, but it's fun. I don't

Cindy Holmes (16:20)
yeah, yeah, I had a lot of fun. I don't regret any of it by the way. I regret some of my behaviours towards people, like bad behaviours like hurting people. That is the only part that I regret. And I missed my old self for a long time. I missed that I was a happy drunk.

Hamish (16:23)
No.

Yeah, absolutely. Let's touch on the shame because that is probably a huge stumbling block because we beat ourselves up. I wish I didn't do that. So much shame. But we have to come to terms with that before we can really start healing and make sense of change and to heal. So how did you wrap your head around that and mitigate it?

Cindy Holmes (17:13)
So I think before, I believe my drinking was a symptom as opposed to a cause. Yeah. For my shame. I think that was the whole incident was just an accumulation of shame and this is series three.

So.

So what was the shame in my life? What was the shame that had come from wounding? What was the shame that had come from me needing to numb? What was the cause of that?

And I came from a family where I was loved a lot. And I know this is often very different from other people's trauma, but I was adored from the day I was born. I was the baby in the family by my one sister was 10 years older than me. My other sister was seven years older than me. My parents, when I was born, had enough money to give me the things that I needed. I mean, they weren't wealthy. You know, I came.

came from a working class family, but there was enough. Whereas when my sisters were growing up, there wasn't necessarily enough to go around. So I was this kid that was super loved and I had this beautiful relationship with my father. I was the apple of his eye and he was the apple of my eye and we did a lot together. And I often talk about being the son my father never had because I turned up being gay.

and maybe the and and there was something in that but what happened was is that my father fell out with his sister because she became she was gay and they didn't talk to each other for 10 years and I it's not my story to tell but they you know it's it's around their relationship but because of that I had this terrible

that if I came out to my father, he wouldn't speak to me again. And so my father held, so I was very shameful around my sexuality because my father would not accept me. And so I really fought it and I did whatever I could not to be that. But the thing that I did is I held this lie to my parents for years. I mean, my friends, my family,

my partners were like had to coerce with me and collaborate with me around truth. And around the fact that I was here in London, I mean, you know, London is London, you can be exactly who you are, whatever, and then my parents would come. I don't know if you've seen the film La Cage La Folle or The Birdcage. So every time my parents came, the whole house had to be changed around, the bedrooms had to be changed around.

And remember I had loving parents. They came every second year to have a holiday and we would go to Ireland and to Greece. And I really, I feel quite shameful at the way that I treated my partners because it was like, that's how it is and I'm not telling my father, I'm not telling my mother. But what I was doing was not integrating a massive part of myself. I wasn't showing up to myself.

I wasn't accepting myself as to who I was. It was fine, but there was always this lie. There was this lie around who I truly was. And the person I loved most in the world didn't know who I was. So I worked really hard with my psychotherapist. I didn't go the AA route. I worked with the angels because I had this new relationship with the angels. And the reason I told that story was

I saw working with the angels, I saw doing transformation around the, you know, for me, my journey was very much the wounded healer and walking the path. And, you know, I did a two year healing course at the College of Psychic Studies. And although I did psychic development and I did various different courses.

I learned a skill or an art or a gift or why enhance my gifts, whatever you want to call it, everyone has different names. But what I was doing was healing myself. And I was working with myself and it came to a point after being in therapy for six months. And this therapist was a healer, a psychic.

were a tutor at the College of Psychic Studies as well, but they also had their masters in psychotherapy and I remember choosing them very clearly because I thought I can't lie because those of you who are sitting here and have possibly had a dance with addiction or are currently really grappling with it.

we can project really interesting stories that hide the truth. Our psyche has to be one of the best of burying things and hiding them and being dishonest with ourselves. Not because, I mean, it's almost like we have a dishonesty to ourselves that really doesn't serve us. So I decided to have a psychic psychotherapist so I couldn't lie to them, right?

And I know that sounds really odd, but it worked for my psyche. It was like, you can't get away. So there was this really deep dive into the root of where I was at, the root of the shame around my sexuality, the shame of growing up. And we went and we did beautiful inner child work around this inner child that had clearly...

not wanted to be honest in the world because she was scared of this rejection. So what was it around approval? What was it around all of that? And then doing a deep dive into that wounding and that childhood causes. And as I said, they weren't, you know, it wasn't abuse or anything like that. It was almost like this love that was not necessarily

you know, the approval of my father was the most important thing in my world. And where did that come from? And really digging deep into that. And in fact, I remember telling him on my 40th birthday, my birthday is on the 3rd of August, and it was the day before Valentine's Day, just before my 40th birthday.

And I told my father, my parents had been here for Christmas and the family was saying, no, don't, daddy's gonna go mad, he's gonna be upset. And I said, and he's gonna know, we all know. And I said, I can't lie anymore, I've got to do, I've got to be honest to that. And the most extraordinary thing about the story is that when I told my father, he said, I knew all along, but because you never told me, I was scared.

to address it with you. So all these years, my father and I lied to each other, hid away our true feelings, never had an honest conversation. And he just said, I completely accepted. I knew it almost before you did. And I've learned to accept from what I learned with my sister. I completely accepted and I love you.

and you still, you know, there was no shame, there was no challenge with my father. So this massive thing that I created was actually rubbish. And it didn't exist. And it's amazing how we can build up in our psyche, the shame, that actually when you open it up and you address it, and you look at it and you integrate it into your energy, actually.

I feel because I'd done the work it fell away. It just like the energy I brought the shame in I'd worked with it and it was amazing my my parents left to go back to South Africa and I just took all the booze and I just I remember I had some beautiful chivas regal and some like Johnny walkers and I just took them and just poured them down the drain. That was it. That was it.

and then kind of walked, so that was after six months, and then really continued the work of the wounded healer. And that's my story of becoming a healer.

Hamish (26:37)
Thank you. That was beautiful. I mean, I I see the beauty in the steps and the process because I've experienced my own version of that. But at the time, it's hard. At the time, it's very hard. But I love what you said about the shame. You eventually opened the windows and the light came in and your dad Dad yeah.

and you both were able to climb out of that little cage that you built. And then it's just like, even more shame. I made a cage. I made my life difficult. I made all of this. It's just like, well, I was doing the best I could. I didn't know how to deal with it. So let myself off the hook, change behavior. You threw that drink away. If that's not changing your behavior, you know, that's quite remarkable.

Cindy Holmes (27:17)
Yeah.

Yeah, and it was literally, it was like day and night and that was it. I mean, yes, it was a struggle, like habits. The physical habit is obviously more difficult, but I'd also been reducing the amount of alcohol that I'd, you know, because I had been working with a therapist, we had been talking.

And I think we're all different. And I know I have an understanding of the AA program. But I think each person is different and people relate differently. I think the way that I did it, that I, you know, walked into the life that I have now is different.

I needed to do that. I need to figure things out. If I was a kid, I would always take something apart and then go, okay, now, how does this work? I can't say, well, that's the end result and do that to get that. So I think people are different. And I think for me, what is really important is that I feel like I am healed. It really doesn't even cross my mind. It doesn't bother me.

Alcohol can be around me. I don't necessarily, you know, if people are drinking and are out of control or loud or noisy or whatever, but it's not something that I have to... I've made a choice and I'm happy with my choice and I feel very comfortable in the choice that I've made in terms of...

we keep choosing and we keep choosing to open something up and look at it and examine it. But I think there's something about integration for me of the shadow that is really important of the shame of really not bypassing it or putting is to bring that in to

bring the shame and and make it understand and make a path you know the Buddhist say you know awareness once you are on the path you know if you have awareness you're already there and and really bringing that in in a way that it's part of you and stop trying to push it outside of you if that makes anything any sense because the more we bring

that shame or that disillusion or that mess into us. We'll figure it out. That's what we're meant to do in this incarnation, I believe. I believe we've been given very clever brains, which can be of use or they can hide things. But figuring it out, being awareness, not trying to push it away or suppress the causes. I feel that suppressing...

things can really lead to more dis -ease and discomfort. And then we want to numb it because we can't keep things suppressed. If we try and keep all our stuff in our dustbins and we don't recycle and we don't do that, it eventually becomes us.

Hamish (30:57)
Tell me a little bit about the Wounded Healer. What does that mean to you?

Cindy Holmes (31:01)
We are born.

in a certain place in the world. We are born into a certain family in the world. And my belief is that, and it's my belief, and I always say to people, you don't need to agree or whatever, you know, but what resonated with me is we came here to learn. We came here to experience. We came here either as a victim to something,

or as a perpetrator and we have these different roles. I would generally think that most people, and sometimes we have a duality around those roles. But what happens is, is our psyche buries things or hides things that we don't want to face. And so my sexuality, although I came out in London to the people who would approve of me, needing my father's approval was like,

I thought our love was like the most important thing, but actually it was a wound and it was buried under layers of excuses and things and we do that. So often people don't talk about things, they bottle things up. We have, we don't even know. I mean, sometimes we have like unconscious trauma that we don't even realize is there. These will get buried.

and hidden away by a psyche, by our ego. Our ego doesn't want to face things. Our ego wants to be in a certain way. So the ego, the psyche hides all these things into two dustbins. And one day something happens to us, often a death, a breakup, an accident, loss of a job, you know, the dark night of the soul reaching rock bottom.

And it depends how you choose to be the wounded healer. Do you just take a lorry and dump everything on the driveway or dump it all and start sorting everything? Or do you do it little bit by little bit? And I think when all your rubbish comes out, that's the wounded healer. And we start sorting things and then we find things that work. So what worked for me?

was working with energy, was working with angels, was working in a spiritual way, was connecting to the divine, to source, to whatever it is, and learning healing arts, psychic arts, medium Shabbat, and then telling my story, I think, you know, telling how did I do it, what were the things that worked, and they worked so well for me, and that's how I can...

kind of landed up in the director of the School of Intuition because this worked so well for me and I mean the two -year healing course that I speak about, I arrived there a mess. I mean I just you know I was still doing community service, I'd just given up alcohol and here I was wanting to be a healer and actually when I started the course it was to keep me out the pub. It had nothing to do with healing whatsoever.

But it was a lot more interesting than going to what I was not going to do. My ego felt that AA meetings. And please, anyone who's watching this, we are all different. We respond to different stimuli. We need certain things, different things. And for me, it was like, well, if I do the psychic class on a Tuesday night and I do the healing on a Wednesday,

And then on a Thursday I can do another workshop and on a Friday I can go to the Spiritualist Church group. So I found spiritual things. I had an interest. I also had an ability. I didn't realize how psychic I was as my intuition was really strong. That's why I was really good in the hospitality. I could read customers, I could read staff and I was really good at it because I could almost...

predict what was going to happen and when it was going to happen and how it was going to happen. I could also see what was going on with people. Hospitality is all about observing people and getting people to do things. So kind of it was something that I, the skill, and so I was fascinated. The fact that I could sit in a psychic class and, you know, I'd always been told this was hocus pocus. Meantime, you know, I had an extraordinary channel.

to channel information for others. And I was like, okay. And then, okay, I can do the heal. You know, I'm also an energy healer. But all of that was just an interest for me. And it was only sort of as I was getting into 14, 15 months in the healing course, I was like, changing. I'm starting to transform. This is actually, and I started paying more attention. It wasn't just like, I'm coming here.

I'll do the homework, it's keeping me busy. It was actually, I'm changing, I'm feeling better. I'm waking up more connected. I'm waking up, you know, my meditation practice is working, it's helping. Learning energy management and how to manage my energy in this world. That was an impact. I used to take on other people's feelings. You know, alongside of that, you know.

I'm sure I had ADHD. So meditation, yoga practice, working with energy really enabled me to ground and be in my body. And grounding was just like, my God, I can be in my body. I can be present with myself. And I don't need to numb myself. I don't need to, I'm okay. I don't have shame. I don't, I can sit quietly. So it was a massive learning.

Did I answer the question?

Hamish (37:10)
You absolutely answered the question. You've given me six more to ask you. And I think that was that was fabulous.

Do you think people are spiritual?

Cindy Holmes (37:19)
I think we are human beings. I think we, and the being being the part of us that incarnates from somewhere else. And then it's being human. And I believe that the balance between the two is really essential. That we don't bypass and we are away with the fairies and we up in ascension.

in that land. I think for me what is really important is that we are human and that we bring us and that everything is energy. So I have a belief system that that everything is energy and therefore you can call that spiritual if you want but our connection and bringing as much positive energy

through different mediums to humanity is what we're here to do. We are here to give and receive love. And how do we channel love and how do we give love? And I think if we get that balance, then yeah, we're spiritual. I don't know, call it what you want, we read bottles. I don't care what it is, but.

But I believe our purpose is to give and receive love and do that. Some of us are givers, some of us are receivers, but it's that balance, it's the dance, it's the yin, the yang, the masculine, the feminine, the heaven and earth, and that space is the heart, and that's where we give and receive love, you know? For me, being only up there and not being human.

is a life that you can choose. I recently spent a month in Nepal.

and being in Kathmandu and going to some of the monasteries. That is a life you choose to go and just mainly be a spiritual being and I believe there is purpose so I believe we can choose that. I love being in the mess. I love being in this is a learning life for me. I'm grateful for you know I think that we can use

My drinking ended up being my superpower, right? My ADHD means I can do six things at once because I can balance and ground them. So I think we choose our life and we can position ourselves into being different things at different times.

Hamish (40:02)
I think that makes an awful lot of sense. Yeah. And I think that's a nice way of describing it. It's not just, yes, we are, woo- woo, no, we're not, we're three dimensional. We are work, eat, sleep, work, eat, sleep. It's a combination. It is. It is that perfect balance of left and right, yin and yang. I thought that was rather beautiful. I want to wind back a little bit to the spiritual aspect of your awakening. You've said you...

At work, you were able to read the situation, read people and tap into what was going on. How important...

can't quite phrase this right. What I'm trying to say is that is proof to you of your intuition. That is proof to you of your gift. How did going to the do that doing that two year training and then studying spirituality and energy, how did that affirm what you were doing without realising?

How did you build on that? Because obviously that is quite a skill.

Cindy Holmes (41:06)
So, I...

Zero series, we're going back before all of this. I think I was fortunate enough in life, and again, to have a near death experience, where I experienced the light. So let me explain that. So we had, I was in a car with my sister and we had two accidents.

of which in the second accident my spirit left my body and was going to the light and I experienced that and made a conscious choice as I was leaving I could feel the light I was going that I really wanted to come back and and that

And having known the light at that age or experienced what the light was, I believe that kind of was part. So when somebody says go to the highest form of light that you can reach, which is part of the way you would access certain information, I just know what that light is because I through a near death experience, I had connected with that. So

what was the healing light? You know, as a healer, when they said connect to the healing light and channel it through your hands. I knew exactly what that was because I had. But I also believe we come from the light and we go back to the light. I believe all spirits come from the light and go back. So we have some form of connection with that. And therefore, I feel that although I might have gone

down into the Dark Knight of the Soul. Alice Bailey who is an old, you know, was, I think she was born sort of 1890s or something who channeled information, talks about the ego and how the ego and this lifetime we incarnate and then we go down to the Dark Knight of the Soul which I believe was

that night in jail and then we start and our desire of our soul is to then make our way up to reach the light and then often we get pushed down again and and so we keep doing that in our lifetime and I believe that we never quite go back to where we were before each of the learning builds on our expansion and I believe

that we all have an ability to use our intuition. I believe we are all healers. I believe that we all are able to tune into different waves of medium waves or energy because everything in my belief system is energy. So I just think that you need to turn the radio on. You need to, you know what I mean? Like where do you want to connect? Do you want to be, and to a degree all our radios are on.

and all of us have an ability to turn them on if they're not on, to work with the energy or frequencies that are available to us. Unfortunately, our density, which is our humanness, can be filled with layers of either dogma in religion, like it's the work of the devil, only the priests can do certain things. And so a religion could create dogma.

that then creates fear and anxiety, which then brings a lower vibration. And that person will say, well, I can't because I'm fearful. So we would need to go to the roots and look at that fear and that limited belief as to whether, you know, there was. Whereas that person might grow up in the church and become an elder and then be able to heal or speak in tongues or whatever within that religion should they be chosen or become an elder.

So I don't think it matters how you get there.

I really don't believe that. I believe we all have a path to the source of all creation. We all have a pathway to the light. And I believe a softness of accepting.

many ways to the light. Bringing in that softening, bringing in the feminine and please I just want to be clear to everyone when I talk about the feminine and the masculine I'm not talking about male or female I'm talking about an energy that is soft. Can we all soften? Can we all just accept that there are different ways to the light?

And that light supports us on earth. Heaven on earth, we want to be here, we want to bring it down. And I'm just going to say this because it's been a narrative I've been running for the last few months. I'm so pleased to hear spiritual channelers, influencers, whatever they're called today, talking about not going up, but bringing it down.

Like let's not, the ascension is not going up. Let's bring this energy into the earth. And the 5D is not out in the astral plane and only special people can get to the astral plane. That's a load of bollocks. Let's just bring this energy to the earth. Let's bring this energy into our hearts and expand it to share. It's not for the clever ones. It's not for the priests or whatever. It's for everyone. It's free and it's for everyone. Imagine that.

Hamish (47:15)
Yeah, there are people who are advocating that with genuine, genuinely and with passion and with care. And as you said, with awareness and such a softness. It's been fascinating my last few months, every month there's a different word of the month. And one was grace.

One was awareness, one was compassion, and one was intention. And those four things are making me more softer and gentle. Does not mean a walkover, quite the opposite. The boundaries are there, what is acceptable, what isn't. And also, you know, you don't like me, that's fine. That's one less person I have to worry about.

And tell me, do you, the school that you work at, that you're the director of, how do you encourage people to sort of bring themselves together and tap into their spirituality, their oneness, their, the universe, source, whatever you want to call it?

Cindy Holmes (48:13)
So it's quite interesting because we facilitate the ancient art. I mean, if you think about us, we're not like, I mean, you might call it new age, but it's not new age at all. It's been around since time immemorial. You know, if you think of, you can think of, if you want to think about Europe and Celtic and how the art, you know, that's been there. You think about the Egyptians, you think about tribal shamanism.

So, kind of regressed in some ways, I think, you know, like somehow we've got AI and we can do heart transplant with robots and we can do all these things yet.

in the mental body but what about the spiritual body, what about the emotional body, what about how that impacts the physical body and so healing, psychic development, mediumship

It's just a vehicle to what you're asking me, because we don't actually do a course on wholeness. We don't, we're facilitating learning a skill like carpentry or it's a skill set. It's, you know, here is methodology, here is, but part of that is how do you come back?

the heart. You know how do you get access information? So let's let's take I'll use an example so connecting with a spirit guide. So there's a way there's methodology on how you can do it and you know still the mind and go to the earth reach you know connect with it bring it through people can use you know meeting with a spirit guide or an angel.

That's one part of it. The most important part of that for me is somebody has the ability to access a being that has higher energy that can support them.

That for me, that's the reason I do this work. Not to teach, not to learn the methodology, but what is the actual spiritual result? What is the human result? What is the benefit of being able to do that?

What is the ability to have intuition and and and be able to you know astrology astrology is supportive because if you look at your chart it's just another awareness that can support you along okay I know I'm going through my Saturn return which I've just this is going to be a life -changing year I don't hang my hat on that

But I've got that there in terms of, okay, so things not changing in your life at 59 years old, that's normal. So there are gonna be changes at that time. So at least you're going, okay, so what am I preparing in my life? How am I navigating my relationships? It's an awareness that can support you. And you know, when I, you know, it's a bit like,

retrograde, a mercury retrograde, everything's blamed on that. No, but it's an awareness.

All of the things that we facilitate is about managing your energy, taking personal responsibility, and that you have choice. And I think if you apply that to whatever it is that you're doing, I just think the benefit of becoming a healer, the benefit of not only learning a skill, but a way of being. And I think that's for me.

is the most important is that a healer or somebody, because whether you're a medium, whether you're a healer, whether you're an astrologer, it's about supporting and holding space and witnessing others. And the journey is to the wise compassionate observer.

And imagine if the whole world became wise, compassionate observers.

How do we become the compassionate observer to humanity?

And when I say that, I don't mean don't do anything if we are able to do things, but it's the, how do we sit in that space? Very difficult as human beings because we brought up to take sides, we brought up around power and money, we brought up and I, again, and I'm not saying we should all give away our belongings and become, you know, in service. I'm not saying that I have a very lovely lifestyle. I'm very

supported by spirit. I'm not saying those things either. I'm saying how do we work those to live a life where we have enough for us.

Hamish (53:12)
Fair points, yeah.

You've talked about managing energy. What does that mean?

Cindy Holmes (53:18)
So energy management to me is a bit like spiritually or energetically, it's a bit like the ABC. Like if one can see their whole being as being energy. So I am everything is energy and that this energy, first and foremost, we are

incarnated into this lifetime at this present moment in time. Therefore we need to be grounded and it's really interesting the more grounded you are and I mentioned this earlier about I'm so glad that ascension is not up there and it's down in us and that the fifth dimension is coming into us we're not going up to it but if you are grounded

The higher you can go, the higher information you can access, the higher vibration that you can then bring there. So grounding and being present, I mean all the gurus talk about the present moment. The way to be in the present moment is being grounded. Being attuned to the source of your creation is really important and being able to balance that in the heart. And then our energy.

needs to you know as you have your personal boundary around touch so you should have an energetica who are you letting into your energy who are you giving permission into your energy and by grounding and creating a bubble you are protecting your energy we are impats or everyone is an impact our energy takes on the energy of our environment of other people

etc. You know and therefore we need to manage that management hygiene management yeah and for me learning to ground and be in my body was a game changer.

All that spiritual work that I did was because I was grounded and I was in my body. And then I started having really good physical boundaries, emotional boundaries, mental boundaries, and spiritual boundaries.

Some of them I learned the hard way. And I just need to say I'm sitting here talking a little bit around and being a little bit, which I don't mean to, I'm not the expert. I am still the wounded healer. I'm still learning and although I'm gaining knowledge around certain things, still in this journey. And it's a lifetime of being the wounded healer, coming down and coming up, learning the next lesson. I never want to.

Hamish (55:41)
Thank you.

Cindy Holmes (56:08)
stop learning. I don't ever want to be an authority. I'll ascend. I don't want to ascend. I love this life. So I'm glad to be the wound, continue being the wounded healer.

Hamish (56:24)
I love that I met the the wounded healer in the the shamanism I was studying last year. And it is embracing who you are the good side, the not so good sides, the shadow, the shade, and every part of you and going Yeah, this is me. I mean, this is what you talked about earlier about shame. This is me. I'm, I'm this I'm manipulative. I'm ugly. I can be angry.

I can also be loving and kind. And if I'm doing those from

an intention rather than a need. I need to be loved. I need to be protected. I'm doing that the other way. That change is so profound and it sort of negates all the ugly side of that. And the shamanic aspect of it I found really rewarding and very curious how when you are aligned to what you went to be doing, things seem to flow and it's

It's attractive in a really healthy kind of way.

Cindy Holmes (57:26)
Yeah, yeah. And I also, I don't know why I want to mention this, but rather than knowing the destination when things are difficult, have an inquiry. You don't need to have the answer. I think if we have an inquiry into a challenge, an inquiry, why am I angry? What is this?

Why am I responding? Why would I, you know, and why? And an inquiry into other people's ruling. Do you know what I'm saying? So this ability to, rather than to judge and to put yourself on a pedestal of any time and go, I'm right and they wrong. And I think that's what I was trying to talk about, this righteousness and wrongness.

is what is the inquiry, why am I responding? What is it in me? What is that, the inquiry that actually allows you to integrate it rather than saying this is bad or evil or wrong.

Hamish (58:39)
triggers are our friends, aren't they? The more we get triggered, the more we have that capacity to learn, to get curious and go, hmm, why am I getting angry? Yeah, that's the reason. I think it's, it has to be really gentle inquiry. And I think you're right. I think it makes a huge difference.

Cindy Holmes (58:59)
And it's back to the feminine.

Back to the soften- ing.

This is unfortunately the negative masculine, believe me, and when I say that, that is the negative masculine. Being assertive, being courageous, being, you know, those are the positive masculine. I think the poor old patriarchy is getting a very bad rep these days. I'm not going to say undeservingly because I'm not going to say that, but I think if we can create the

inquiry again rather than the judgment and bring the inquiry into conversation around power, one directional, you know, certain behaviors that have come through generations of learning and generational trauma of our species. There is another inquiry. In fact, yesterday I was facilitating some ancestral healing.

Hamish (59:47)
Hehehehe

Cindy Holmes (1:00:01)
that was really curious around somebody whose ancestral generational trauma came both from French and German descent and how that impacted their way of being in certain behaviors and creating the inquiry to heal the generational trauma and bringing that in as

within themselves of that contrast and carrying both of that was really a beautiful healing to observe.

Hamish (1:00:37)
The whole ancestral healing is incredibly fascinating because we forget that our parents taught us what they were taught by their parents. And unless they have done any work on themselves and thought about things, their parents were taught back. So you're being brought up by societal standards which are 30, 40, 50, 60, 100, 200 years old. Same as your parental beliefs, same as their religious beliefs.

I mean, it's only as you said, when we start being inquiring and looking back at these things, we can go, you know, yes, I do have that, that trait, and I don't want to pass that on to my children. So explain a little bit about the ancestral healing, because I think it's it sounds very woo woo, but it's not.

Cindy Holmes (1:01:28)
So let's take epigenetics, which we forget. Let's just go back to that cellular memory is passed on. And that is scientifically there was, I can't remember the guys who did it, but about seven or eight years ago, there was a whole scientific study on the fact that our cells hold memory and the memory of the cells is passed on from one generation to the next generation.

and that memory can, if everything is energy, the alchemy of healing works. Okay, because if our whole body is energy, we can shift and move and integrate. So therefore, if cells have memory of our generations, and as I say, there's a couple of really good scientific studies on epigenetics, then one can heal that wounding.

transmuting the energy within the self through energy healing. But let's take physical abuse. Hurt people hurt people. Often within a generation through famine, through war, through whatever.

take Colombia as a country where through the nature of being occupied by the Spanish and through soldiers coming, you know, and through that, you know, people became very violent and were abused violently. They had children who to get things done, they then abused. And then those children abused again. So that is just a trait that could have been

passed down through generations because that is learned behavior. To be abused is the way that you feel safe because that's what happened. And sometimes you can either be a mirror or that and and so sometimes it will miss a generation because say for example a child who would have an alcoholic parent would choose to miss because they would go totally the other way not touch it or whatever but often their child.

would then turn to alcoholism or whatever because that runs in the family lineage. So by going back and finding the cause of when that happened and understanding it and having an inquiry around the generational trauma, understanding it, bringing it into the light, integrating it, awareness, acceptance, it doesn't even need to, I don't even need

I don't believe that one needs even forgiveness to heal. Awareness, acknowledgement, can already shift energy within a family line.

But you think about the traits. I always say remember the good ones. If you want to think about ancestral healing, why don't you think about, my great grandfather was like that and then my father was like that. You know, I come from a circus family. My family were adventurers. I'm an adventurer. I love going to foreign countries. That is just such a great ancestral thing that I have for my family. Think about beautiful eyes. Think about thick hair. Think about lovely things.

What we do in the light we get in the dark. So then think about the bad things. So when you're talking a fondness of an ancestral line, you know, all of our family were teachers. All of our family were doctors. There's a sense of pride. Yeah, but with them, my father was also a boozer. And his grandfather was a boozer.

Hamish (1:05:16)
I think you struck something very, very important there. And I did a shamanic journey a few months ago and I was given a family tree and I went back through it. And as I was walking back through this, I realised that every single one of these people had been born, lived to adulthood to reproduce. So they were all survivors and every one of them gave me

wisdom, knowledge, help, support. Every one of my ancestors had given me all my good traits and the bad ones maybe, but they had all participated in who I am today. And it was remarkable to look back, just going back and back and back at all these people who have contributed to me, to you, to everybody. And what you've just reminded me how important is to celebrate

Cindy Holmes (1:05:56)
Yep.

Today. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah.

Hamish (1:06:14)
They were heroes. They all survived long enough. It is so beautiful what you said there, which I'd forgotten about.

Cindy Holmes (1:06:21)
Yeah, yeah. So I think people always think what is the bad I got from my generational, you know, from my generational background. And yes, think of the wars, think of the, you know, South Africa, because I know there's quite a bit, you know, think about apartheid and what it did. And the traumas within individual families. And we see that group areas act in particular in Cape Town, amongst the mixed race, drug colored.

community.

just relocated one day, not given any money for what you had built.

how that runs as a pattern of scarcity with even very wealthy mixed race colored people today is that that trauma of scarcity, even though they have more than enough, there is a fear of not having enough because it might be taken away tomorrow and because that trauma still sits in the energy field.

So integrated, own it.

And, you know, one of the other things that's a touchy subject at the moment, but this is a spiritual platform, is owning your white privilege. You know, I have white privilege. I grew up in South Africa. I benefited from a system. And I'm not proud of it, but I need to integrate that into who I am as a human being because it's part of me. It's part of the fact, it's a fact.

And it's something that is just part of me and I rather express that and you know, there's a lot of, you know, one of my learnings at the moment and one of my inquiries at the moment is diversity and is around where we act of being in a space of the heart when dealing with a very conflicting world at the moment and

And for me, it's a journey I'm taking to understand my own unconscious bias through my generational trauma and wanting to look at it with an open heart and an inquiry of, I'm not going to blame my parents or their parents or the system. How do I integrate it into being the best version of myself today?

Hamish (1:08:45)
You've, I think you've absolutely nailed it. It's, this is who I am. As you said, I have that white privilege. I've got the, I've got the male aspect of that, you know, and all those things. It's, it's made me who I am. So I can either go, yeah, hey, look at me. Or I can, as you said, integrate it and use it with, for service, use it for good, use it for something of value, give something back from, from the privilege and the

the honor I have had of being who I am.

Cindy Holmes (1:09:17)
So what's interesting, sorry to interrupt you, Hamish, but there are two two that I think have come up today in our narrative and in our inquiry. And one is intention INTENTION the other one is CONSCIOUSNESS And there is unconscious, remember I said about the dustbins and I said about the wounded healer and I just want to reiterate that inquiry into the dustbins.

into what is unconscious within us, into the consciousness, keeping asking the difficult questions, keep asking the good questions, into how we turn up and show up as the best version of ourselves.

Hamish (1:10:02)
How do we then, this is a good one for you, how do we question our unconscious? How do we find out what we don't know about ourselves?

Cindy Holmes (1:10:13)
When you, I think, somatic work, I'm not a somatic practitioner, but recently just diving into some of Jeff Levine's work around trauma, is when we feel discomfort in our body around something. I think our body is a really, really good barometer of

I think any form of discomfort, whether it be in our heads, in our emotions, in our spiritual being, if there's discomfort.

What is it within us? Not outside. Why are we uncomfortable? Why has that person upset me? Why did that question make me agitated? There haven't been any questions by the way that may be. But say for example you were to ask me something that made me agitated in this conversation. I promise you there's nothing.

I would go away and go, what do I need to learn? What is that prompt? It's like the minute I feel discomfort, it's like my Jiminy Cricket, you know, let your conscience be your guide. In there is what's poking me, why is it poking me? Whether I'm watching something on television, what is that in me that I can't be neutral, that I can't bring it into my heart? And you see horrendous things.

And if you can just bring that in, you know, it's that integration again, isn't it? And often they double -edged swords. You know, like how do you have fierce compassion?

for somebody but not rescue them. I mean that's one of my lessons in life, you know, how do I have fierce compassion of the archetype of the healer without rescuing and being the witness? And you want to pull people out, you want to pull people out the shit, you know? And sometimes you can't, sometimes, because if they don't reach the dark night of the soul.

If I hadn't been caught drunk driving, where would I be today? If somebody had said, don't stay, don't drive, don't drive, we're taking your keys away.

Would I be here today? Maybe not. Maybe my life would have taken a completely different trajectory.

Hamish (1:12:37)
Who knows?

Cindy Holmes (1:12:38)
Who knows.

Hamish (1:12:38)
I think that is the most spectacular place to leave this incredible conversation. We could talk for hours. There's no doubt about it. We really could.

Cindy Holmes (1:12:45)
We could.

Hamish (1:12:49)
think this was been a remarkable conversation. Thank you, Cindy. I've really enjoyed it. I think your, your insight and your enthusiasm just, you know, it just shines and it is, it is curiosity. It is that inquiry. and that softness, it's all those things that when we start doing that, we

and stop judging ourselves. Let's add that one. We really do begin to see what we can really become. And I think that's lovely. And I think you've really helped make some sense of that today.

Cindy Holmes (1:13:23)
Brilliant. Hamish, thank you. It's been lovely to be on your platform. I wish you many fabulous, fabulous conversations and many, many inquiries into what's there for people. So thank you for doing this work and taking the time to set this up. And maybe in some time we can chat again.

I'm going to go ahead and close the video.

Hamish (1:13:51)
I think we definitely will do. Now, a couple of quick questions I want to ask you. Where can people find out more about you and what you do?

Cindy Holmes (1:14:03)
So the best place is the School of Intuition and Healing, which is the school and I spoke about that a lot. Something that I haven't spoken about, I run an intuitive business coaching practice. That is the work that I do and love because I have this massive business knowledge and I've really integrated my intuition and my healing ability.

into business and I support people who are consciously working with energy within business. So that you would find at cindyhomes .co .za. And then also what I'd love to offer people listening to this is we have a self -led course on invincible energy.

which is, as I said, self -led, it's seven days, it's 20 minutes a day. But if you can follow 50 % of what is facilitated in there, I promise you your life will change. It's just about energy management. How do I grind? How do I cleanse? How do I protect? How do I be in my body every day? And if you can get that right, it's a game changer. So...

Hamish, I'm sure we'll put the links into where this podcast is. And hopefully we'll see you maybe one day at the school if it resonates with you.

Hamish (1:15:40)
I'm definitely going to sign up for that seven day course. That sounds fabulous. Yeah. Thank you. And I'll put everything in the show notes. And lastly, what is your superpower that you gained from your awakening?

Cindy Holmes (1:15:52)
My superpower is that I see everything as being energy. I'm an alchemist of energy and I think that for me is my superpower, is this ability to connect, to be with it, to be it.

Hamish (1:16:08)
Brilliant. Thank you ever so much. That has been a really wonderful session today. I've really enjoyed our conversation.

Cindy Holmes (1:16:15)
Me too. Thanks, Hamish.

Hamish Niven (1:16:17)
Thank you for listening to this episode of The Crucible: Conversations for the Curious. If these powerful stories of transformation resonated with you, be sure to like, subscribe and share this show with anyone who you think could do with a dose of inspiration for their own journey. I would really appreciate it if you could make any comments on your favourite podcast platform as well, that helps me reach more people. All the important links and information are in the show notes below. Thank you very much for listening and catch up with you soon.