The Crucible:Conversations for the Curious

Hamish Niven (00:03)
Welcome to The Crucible, Conversations for the Curious. I'm Hamish, your host.

In each episode you'll hear from everyday people who've been through profound life altering experiences, from life threatening illnesses or accidents, deep existential crisis, addiction, or having to make life choices that have ultimately brought them peace, connection and purpose. They've all stared into the abyss, walked through the fire of their own personal dark nights of the soul, and emerged from the other side transformed. This podcast is for anyone going through an awakening, a time of massive change, or questioning the

meaning of life. You are not alone. You can get through this. I promise you life is more meaningful and beautiful on the other side.

Hamish (00:49)
Hi everyone. Today we've got Liz with us and she is going to tell us about her awakening and her journey because it's been quite a remarkable one.

Liz Folan (00:56)
Hi Hamish, thanks for inviting me on and hi to your listeners. I love this project and when you sent me the link about the title, it just so deeply resonated with me. Awakening, I just think it's a wonderful name and a wonderful concept. So yeah, thank you very much for that. Well, I suppose you could say my awakening, my journey that I'm currently on, this...

part of my life, this chapter in my life, started with a very, very simple thing really. I just pushed away a wine glass one random Sunday night at dinner, having my roast dinner and said, no, no thank you, not tonight. And that began a journey of transformation that...

I had no idea would take place when I did that simple gesture six and a half years ago nearly now that that happened. But I mean to get to that point, to get to there, there had been a lot of trial and error, there had been a lot of soul searching, a lot of work, a lot of reading, a lot of immersing myself in a different mindset.

re -educating myself to realise that I didn't need alcohol in my life anymore and from that one simple gesture everything, everything in my life changed utterly. So yeah, so that's my awakening. My Awakening is My Sobriety.

Hamish (02:45)
Congratulations. That is brilliant. Yeah, I can see you doing that. Just putting that glass down and saying, that's enough. What an incredible feeling. But it was, I guess, as you said, it must have been quite a journey to get to that point. Tell me a little bit about the background, if you would.

Liz Folan (02:47)
Thank you.

So I drank like everybody I knew at the time. I started drinking as a teenager and at the time it was really normalised. It was in the 80s. I lived in Ireland in a small village in County Limerick and I was a bit of a rebel. I was brought up in London as a child.

moved to Ireland at the age of 11. So there was always an element of being a bit of an outsider in my life. And I only realised that as I started to do the work, actually, after I stopped drinking. But when I was in England, in London, I was raised as an Irish girl. My Dad would teach me the odd word of Irish. I was trotted out every time there'd be a family get together, always with booze, to sing the Galway Shawl and to sing...

various like Spancil Hill and the rebel songs and St. Patrick's Day would come, we'd have green ribbons in our hair, we were very involved in the Irish community. So when I'd be in school I was very much the Irish kid and then when I moved from Ireland to England I became the English kid and it was at the height of the Troubles as well.

and where we moved to was a very Republican area. Well, this is where my mom was from, not my dad. My dad was from Galway. So it was a really difficult transition and I experienced some bullying, but I didn't, I just, you know, in those days you just got on with it. So when I got old enough to express myself and to have a bit of a say in who, I suppose my identity, I drank very much to fit in. I drank to rebel as well. So I was rebelling against...

the older generation, but also the patriarchy, you know, and Catholicism and everything that was, we were just entrenched in all of that in those days. And boredom, it was so boring. There was nothing going on. So in my head, London was this, you know, bright lights, big city place, even though I didn't have any exposure to any of that, because I was a child when I lived there. And where I was living was very kind of monochrome.

And when I started drinking, when I had my first drink, and that was an act of rebellion and boldness really, it was, it just, everything just lit up for me. It was like fireworks in my brain. It's like, this is great. I felt instant kind of acceptance. I was a huge risk taker. I was just, it just animated me. And I was quite lively anyway as a child.

and quite curious and yeah, expressive. I had a lot to say, but when I started to drink, I instantly found a tribe. I found my way and found my voice. And I think that then led to going to university. I became the first in my family, apart from our English cousins, to go to university. And that was a huge thing from both sides of my family.

And when I got there, I found another tribe. I found a tribe of people who were like -minded and into the same stuff that I was into and could talk about books and films that I was into, not be kind of othered or feel weird for the things that we liked. But also I ended up as a barmaid working in the college bar and just partied and partied and partied. And it was great fun, great fun. And it was great fun when I went abroad and I worked as a teacher.

and I traveled in the Middle East and lived in the Middle East for a number of years and then kind of got into the expat community, which is completely alcohol drenched. And just every single, just because we lived in each other's pockets, there was always somebody's birthday. There was always some kind of thing to celebrate, whether it's a promotion or commiserate. Somebody was, you know, stressed at work or had a bad time. So there was always something there in my early twenties.

And also I think with me then, it copper fastened my identity as an Irish person traveling abroad. Because it's like, here's Liz, she's great craic, she'll sing songs. And I don't know, I used to think it was great craic, but now I think back and I cringe and I think, Jesus, I turn off like the party tapes and go, no, no, we're going to have a sing song, come on, let's have a sing song. And, or, or.

Hamish (07:18)
Thank you.

Liz Folan (07:42)
I went through a phase of reading Irish poetry, that was another thing that I did, so I would stop everything. And it became things like, when did you leave the party? Was it before or after Liz started doing the poetry? And then I realised, God, this is the thing I do. And I think it was because alcohol enabled me to express so much of what I had to keep. Bottled up. Alcohol, once I had it, I could just do anything.

And I felt invincible and I felt it was a superpower. I could talk to anybody. I could argue with anybody. And I always used to find that I got into really fun situations on the whole. You know, there are some scrapes there when I think back and I think and Julia, my friend and my other podcast host in my podcast, Julia, she said, do you know what it was like, Liz? It was like we were going around these young women, right?

walking around cities, like just bodies walking around with absolutely like our brains were gone. Our brains were offline. And I think back and I look at my children now, I mean, my son's 18 and my daughter's 12 and I think, my God, I just couldn't imagine expecting or allowing or thinking about them out in the world in that vulnerable state that we were in.

when we were young like that. But at the time, I was invincible. And I was very, very lucky. I think I have some kind of divine angel guide looking down on me, minding me, because there were a number of scrapes and some of my friends weren't as lucky. But all the time it was fun and it was joyous and it was an expression of who I was and it was a way for me to be me.

the essence of who I was. And I thought that alcohol enhanced all of that. It added flavor to my life. It made it colorful. And it didn't, and the thing with my alcohol consumption was I drank the same way from day one. So when I was a teenager, maybe about 14, I drank to get drunk, to experience the high, to have an altered state. That was it.

Hamish (09:55)
Hmm.

Liz Folan (10:07)
And it was really only when I had children, because again, that's the thing. I went from the whole, you know, young professional, expat, traveling the world to settle down. And then I became, it became mommy wine time. So we all pushed the means. We, I mean, we advertised it. We, we didn't need to be advertised. We didn't need to be targeted to, but we had been prior to that. Sex in the City was always sponsored by

Jacob's Creek. So without fail, you'd stick that on and you go, do you know what I fancy? The next thing there'd be a chink chink and you'd be at the at the fridge door pouring the white or whatever. I liked red wine because I was sophisticated and had a sophisticated palette, obviously, because I was a professional, you know, so expensive wine. But you know, I just when I think back, I just say it's just the lies we tell ourselves. But it started, I think I started to question my drinking.

when I started to drink at home and when I started to feel isolated. And I think that I was always drinking at home to a degree with the father of my children, my ex. And I was always, whenever anyone would come around or anyone would visit from Ireland, any of my friends or family, first thing we'd do is open the wine. But obviously I didn't drink during the day, so we'd have to wait till dinner time to have it. But then all bets were off.

then all bets were off, so we could be up till four or five in the morning or whatever. But the wine started to find its way into the shopping bag more frequently and the excuses started to be made more regularly when it came to having spaghetti bolognese midweek, for instance, because when I was a mom, I was working part time, so if I had Thursday off, I'd have to have spaghetti bolognese on a Wednesday.

because I'd have to have wine with it because you don't, I mean, only peasants make spaghetti bolognese without red wine, you know? So it'd be some for the dish and some for me. And then there'd always be an extra bottle hidden away. So the Wednesday night or the Thursday night became, and it never developed into something that was like every single night. I never, because I just thought, God, I just thought of it because I would always overdo it.

and I'd always be hanging the next day. I didn't know any, I just couldn't understand how, you know, you'd get tips in magazines or on telly, you know, on this morning they'd be doing the cookery bit and let's say, and any leftover red wine, you just freeze it in ice cube trays and put it in the freezer. I was like, who does that? That's the biggest lie that we tell ourselves. But some people do, you know, Hamish, I believe.

Hamish (13:00)
(Hamish) I can't believe it.

Liz Folan (13:02)
But that was where I was at. And I think I got to a stage of realising when my children, you know, my son was about six or seven and my daughter probably was about two. And I started to think, is this it? Is this it? Is this the highlight of my week? Like looking forward to having this bottle and a half of wine on a Wednesday night or then maybe having it on a Friday and then Saturday.

And the Sunday one was the one that killed me because it was the weekend. So I would say to myself, I'm not going to have wine tonight because it's Friday, because I'm going to do park run on a Saturday because I used to run a lot. And then I'd find myself texting my running group saying, is anyone having a glass of wine just because it's Friday? And somebody, all I needed, all I needed was for one person to take a picture of their glass of wine.

And then I'd be like, well, I'll have one because such and such is having one. And then that would always, for me, end up with me drinking the rest of the bottle and possibly looking for more, you know, later on. And then smoking fags and then, you know. So, and meanwhile, and I'd still get up and I'd still run and I'd still be hanging. But that person would be like, yeah, I did have that wine. Yeah, I feel a bit rough. And I'd realize that they only had that one. But it would never end like that for me, never.

But still it wasn't a problem. It didn't seem a problem and it was really only a problem when I started to feel depressed with him and I didn't even realize it was depression until I stopped. But I was saying earlier with the weekend, the Friday would happen, Saturday I'd say no, then we'd have a takeaway curry, the wine would come into the room, I'd have just the one, it would lead to something else. Sunday would be the roast dinner.

and the wine would come to the table and once again it would be me going I'll just have one because I'm working tomorrow and by the end of the night I'd be looking around stealing his Guinness, stealing his Roli's, getting into trouble, you know, sitting out the back having a hot whiskey thinking this will change tomorrow and I think that's when I realized that it was an issue because I kept breaking promises to myself.

I kept saying, tomorrow's gonna be different. Tomorrow's gonna be different. And I did, I tried things like, I suppose I tried, my friend used to jokingly call me a stopaholic. She would say, you're not an alcoholic, you don't have a problem with booze, you just have a problem with stopping drinking when you start. Or you're addicted to stopping.

Hamish (15:42)
Hmm.

Liz Folan (15:46)
because I would find it, and you know me now, I am the queen of challenges. Every month there's a new challenge. If you follow me on Instagram, and I love it because that's what lights me up. And I share challenges with people because I love to see people in tribes doing things together. But I also love challenges because for me, it makes me accountable. So every month I was starting a new.

I'm giving up Boo's challenge and it would be, I'd call it Joyful January. I think these were the days even before Dry January, but I did do a few Dry Januaries. Then I kind of jump on the Catholic bandwagon and say, I'll do Advent. So I've done a few Advents. God, Lent was a gift to me. I was always like, well, it's all going to be better now in February because it would be Lent. And then I'd start.

I'd start on Ash Wednesday and then something would come up and I'd be like, I should look at, I'll start again in April or, you know. But that one Sunday night, it didn't just happen out of the blue. I'd had a few runs at it, but prior, it had taken me a good few years of trying to keep this drug in my life before I realized, actually, I don't need it. I don't, why am I working so hard to moderate this drug? Why am I working so hard?

moderate. Why would you even, why would you want one anyway in the first place? Why would you have one anyway? So that was my mindset. And yeah, it wasn't until I met, I saw somebody, it was actually Lucy Rocker who set up Soberistas talking on this morning. And she was essentially talking about grey area drinking and alcohol use disorder and the spectrum of alcohol use disorder.

that I realised, that's what's happening. That's who I am. That's how I drink. It's problematic. And yeah, that's when I thought it's time to do something about this and do something about it now. Yeah.

Hamish (17:56)
really empowering because it is hard. But you sound like you constantly had more awareness. I wasn't so clever. I did that. I plummeted and I came down to two choices. And it was carry on driving drunk and crash and kill somebody or myself or get to rehab.

Liz Folan (18:10)
Wow.

my god. Yeah.

Hamish (18:21)
So I think that's amazing that you were able to have that sense of awareness and go, this is not really working. Yeah, it wasn't day one, it wasn't your first relapse, but you managed that. So what was it like after you put that glass down? Because I guess you had to confront various things that were hidden at the bottom of that glass.

Liz Folan (18:33)
Yeah.

Yeah.

god, it was really hard. I mean at first it was really liberating because I had put so much research into it and I think I don't know like for you that rock bottom that you talk about and having to face that stark choice between really death or life, wasn't it? It was a life or death choice. Although I didn't have that.

per se, that story that you have was a story that kept me drinking, because I kept saying, I'm not that bad. And that's why I speak about this so passionately, because I think we all need to address our drinking and, or our habits, our habits that numb us out.

No, it might not be drinking for everybody. It could be. I see a lot of students in schools who have vaping. That seems to be really on the increase at the moment. And cannabis, vaping and things like that. But it could be gambling. It could be shopping. You know, sugar is another one, isn't it? Caffeine. But yeah, I think...

So having the awareness was significant for sure but this is something that I've devised with the work that I do now. I have a quote, this little saying that I give to people all the time because I've written on my bathroom wall and it's BELIEVING + BEGINNING = BECOMING.

Hamish (20:25)
Say that again, I like that.

Liz Folan (20:27)
Believing, I'm mad into alliteration me Hamish, so anything with alliteration or acronyms or little things like pithy things that you can remember. Believing plus beginning equals becoming. Right? So for me to change my identity to become somebody who's alcohol free, who's sober, who's whatever I want to call myself, I had to first of all believe I could. And that's the first step with any awareness.

and any habit change. So I had to do things like, I'm just looking at the books that are around me. Do you know what I mean? These are the books that I, well, this is a new one, but these are the types of books that I read that helped me believe that I had the ability to, these are the people who went before me. So the first stage was doing that and,

In conjunction with that, I immersed myself in podcasts. So I went on my podcast app and I just put in Sober Podcasts. And I found this woman actually, Laura or Holly Whitaker, who co -hosted a podcast with Laura McCown called The Home Podcast. Two women of a certain age, same age as me, very like me, into the same stuff. And they were like my mates. And I just carried them around with me everywhere.

And what I was doing was I was rewiring my brain I now know. And the other book was this Naked Mind. I don't have it because I've given it away to so many people over the years. But that was all about the neuroscience of addiction and habit change. And once I started to realize the neuroscience behind it, it was a no -brainer, to excuse the pun, but it was. It was like, what? This is mind -blowing. And...

That really helped me in the early days to really face into it because when I knew that these people had suffered, that they were struggling, that when I read their stories, when I borrowed their belief, which is what I say to people now, I'll say, if anyone's doing something like giving up smoking or giving up drinking or working with me with habit change, I'll say, borrow my belief until you have yours and immerse yourself. Borrow everybody's belief. Stand on the shoulders of giants.

Because once you stand on the shoulders of giants, that's it. You can actually get their lived experience. Lucy Rocker, watching her, I read her book and I joined her website, I joined Soberistas, it was called. And then I started to check in every day and I started to read the blogs of the women who had gone before me. And I was seeing that they were living these amazing lives and that they were talking about the joys of sobriety. There was no shame.

There was no like, you're broken, you know? So I had all of that to bolster me and I knew that when I had to face into the deep work and the deep work had to be done because you had to really deconstruct what was it that brought you to the place where you needed this substance. You needed a substance to numb out and to sit with it. So for me, one of the biggest...

tools that I had already started to use before I did any of this was the morning pages from the artist's way. And I don't know if you've heard of Julia Cameron's Artist's Way. You might have if you, but I think, do you, have you ever done any of that work before?

Hamish (24:07)
I have yes, I can't remember where I met her. But I think what she does is fabulous. And I do the morning pages not every day, but probably three, four days a week, I will I will sit down there and write down whatever's going through my head and my heart. And sometimes it's repeatable. Sometimes it's not but it is very cathartic. Yeah.

Liz Folan (24:15)
Yeah.

It's amazing, well, but the more pages, for listeners, it's three sides of A4, mental puke, I call it, just puke on a page, yeah? But it's three sides of A4, every day, show up to the page, free hand, free association, just shite, essentially. But I had been doing that for years because I was a blocked creative. I didn't know I was a blocked creative. I always wanted to express myself. I did English in university, I did a master's in journalism.

but there was this limiting belief that I wasn't good enough. And when I started to unravel the limiting beliefs, I realised there was a limiting belief, because I'm a woman, limiting belief, you know, being Irish, being English, what am I, identity wise, I had to unravel that and unpick that. I'd go back to years of bullying, loneliness in relationships and things like that. And once I started to unpick this and then, you know, real...

Go back to like inherited trauma from your parents and their stories and their struggles. It was a lot to sit with. It was a lot to sit with. So that's when I started to get counseling as well. And that helped me a lot. But the morning pages, it was through the morning pages that I knew, in fact, I've got it up here, the artist's way. This isn't just a look at all my books kind of podcast, but it's because I'm sitting when I'm sitting with the parents. I love it.

Look, it's just full, full, full of notes, full of notes. But that, that was, that was life changing for me because it was in the artist's way, morning pages, that I realized there's a pattern here. I'm constantly berating myself. I'm constantly berating myself for not doing what I say I'm going to do. And what I said I wanted to do was not drink. I won't drink tonight. Not never, not ever. And when I was breaking those promises, I thought, hold on, there's a, have I?

problem with but no surely not and then it was when I saw Lucy Rocker and I learned about gray area drinking that I realized that I did but yeah the first to go back to your original question the early days the early days were I think they it was kind of like a pendulum I'd go from extreme highs where and those high

I do really feel that part of my drinking was a way of self -medicating my own kind of hyperactivity that I had as a child and as a teenager and sometimes a bit as an adult as well. Because the highs, I would do really crazy things like I would run in, I remember I would run in and I'd grab like the head when I was teaching in the corridor and go.

I've just heard this amazing podcast. I want to do training on it. And you're wild -eyed. And they just very calmly go, that's great, Liz, thanks very much. More calm than that. When I think back, I think, my God, was that my sobriety? Was that my level of awareness? Or is that just because I was no longer hungover? I just had more energy. I don't know. But then you'd have complete lows as well because there was the...

You know, the issue of FOMO, fear of missing out. There's the issue of, remember, we're social animals, we're pack animals. So if you come away from the herd, if the entire world is drinking and the entire world was drinking and you come away, you know, you have to change your family dynamic. You have to change your intimate relationships. You have to change your relationships with your friendship groups. In some ways, even if it's not overt and very obvious.

So that level of challenges is constantly there and it can become a really lonely place. So I was thankful that I found Soberistas and I was about 50 days sober at that stage. And I, well, I was actually, I tell a lie. I started to interact with Soberistas when I was 50 days. I've been on Soberistas for 10 years, but in my kind of crazy believing situation, I wasn't ever beginning. I was constantly in that believing state.

where I was like, and I remember this, I said with my friend who was over visiting from Ireland one year, as we were drinking wine and smoking fags in the garden. And I was like, I get these, I get these emails from Lucy Rocker and Soap Vistas because, you know, this is terrible, this booze, it's terrible. And she's like, yeah, yeah, I know, but I'm not gonna stop. And I was like, I am, I'm actually researching it, it's amazing. I carried on. I was so deluded, it went on for years.

But because I was getting emails from sober visitors, I kind of thought I was sober curious at least, but it was, yeah, I think knowing that these people were there, knowing that these people had done it, and then actually attending a few meetups and meeting these people in the flesh, because on the site, to protect our anonymity, we have...

you know, different names. So it was like going to a 007 conference, you know, where you're like, hi, who are you? My friend, her name on the site is Taking My Life Back. And we went to this conference, not conference, we went to like a meetup and she assumed everybody downstairs was part of our social group, you know, women of a certain age.

soberistas and she approached some women and she was nearly about to say, hi, I'm taking my life back. And she realized they weren't part of our group. She's like, good for you love. I'm glad you're taking your life back. But yeah, it was, it was, it was extreme. But because I had the support network and I called it my sober tribe, you know, because I had them and because I was checking in twice a day, if I had a wobble like,

post and just say I've got to go to a hen do I'm freaking out it's an island it's gonna be booze soaked what do I do help me out and then slowly and gradually I started to find support networks in real life people who live near me some who are now my dearest and nearest friends you know and that that really helped but I was lucky because that believing part

and the beginning, you know, I was able to begin doing the work and understand that when I was faced with the difficult parts, when I was faced with the parts of myself that I might have buried, the darker sides, the parts that were shameful, the parts that I felt so guilty about in my drinking days, when they came up, I was able to reach out and I was instantly embraced.

So I have so much thanks to Lucy Rocker, so much thanks to Soberistas and the Soberista community, so much so that I went on and studied them for my master's thesis. That's what I did, I did social connection in online communities because they really save lives, that group. And there's about 80 ,000 people on that group now.

They saved lives. And I was on it for COVID as people were joining and it burgeoned during COVID because so many people had, you know, been trapped with their four walls, drinking, just escalated. So it was really, I think it's such a wonderful, wonderful community. But yeah, that's for me, I was very lucky. I had that and I had those people and I had the...

the lived experience of so many others. And that's why I'm so passionate about sharing it today. I'm so passionate about reaching people and giving them an option. They don't have to get to that crucial stage of life or death before they choose that alcohol is something that we do. It's a life -storied choice as much as anything else. You can stop it, just like you can stop drinking coffee, but it's not that easy. That's the other thing. When you understand...

that you choose your hard and that's, you know, Glennon Doyle Melton. That's something that she said, another person I used to follow and still do. But she said, you choose your hard. You know, it's hard to stay drinking. It's hard to give up mate, but you choose your hard. And that hard, that's the hard you choose is the hard that actually shows, enables you to grow. And that's...

the significance, I think, of that piece.

Hamish (33:23)
I'd never considered the choosing your hard, but it makes sense because it was hard. lying, going to different bottle stores, pretending, assuming they wouldn't recognise me. I mean, go figure. but that makes complete sense because it is hard work drinking, getting up, hung over, feeling shit, struggling.

Liz Folan (33:37)
Yes! Yes!

Hamish (33:41)
not working properly, compromising, lying, deceiving. I mean, it was horrible. It was... Yeah.

Liz Folan (33:48)
It's hard, it is. And it's not just that, it's the mental energy of the thoughts. So with me it was, okay, so I'll go to work, I'll do my job, blah, blah, blah, blah. I'm training for a marathon, so therefore there's nothing wrong, nothing to see here. Look at me, I'm superhuman, hello. Or I go to yoga, I can't have a problem with alcohol. It doesn't matter that I'm going to yoga wearing a t -shirt that says I do yoga because I like wine. I had a t -shirt, I had, and I've posted it before.

I have a running vest that I thought was hilarious. It says, I run because I really like wine. And I was so absolutely blown away by this running vest that I bought it for my sister -in -law and my sister, because I thought it was hilarious, wasn't it? Look at us, aren't we, guys? And we are so indoctrinated. So from the minute that I was like, from the minute I decided I wasn't going to drink, then it became the issue. That's when it took up all my time, because then it was like...

I'm not gonna drink tonight. It's Friday, but I'm not gonna drink tonight. I'm gonna be prepared. And then I'd be like, but I do need to stop in the Aster on the way home. So I'll just go in the Aster, but I won't go down the wine aisle. I'll tell you what I'll do. I'll go in and I'll just buy the few bits for the dinner. But I did say I'd make spaghetti bolognese. That's always the one. There's always one. That was my biggest excuse. And I was like, right, I'll just go down. I'll just get some for the dinner. I'll just get an extra bottle of Chelsea. So you're telling yourself.

all these internal like dialogues, it's exhausting. So to be able to just take a step back and go, my God. And as you say, waking up and dragging a dead dog of a hangover behind you everywhere you went. I mean, it's like Banquo's Ghost walking behind you everywhere you go. It's like, here's your hangover. Here I am, nothing to see here. But like behind you is this spectre of the night before.

And as you say, the lying, the lies, waking up saying, I'm actually fine. People are going, are you okay? Because you said a lot last night, you confessed, you said blah, blah, blah, blah. You puked your heart out. Or are you okay? You posted something last night. And then it's all like this whole nothing to see here. It's absolutely fine. No, fine, yeah, fine, fine, yeah. It's a nonsense. For me, it was death by a thousand cuts.

It was death by a thousand, just ch -ch -ch -ch -ch -ch -chipping away. and I've, I've written a little blog about the opposite of that, which is death by a thousand sparks or life by a thousand sparks, because the early days, it was, you needed the glimmers. You needed that, you know, that 10 days in a row. Boom. That, that became 30 days. That's a month.

Yeah, that's like three, three weekends, four weekends, weekends, first weekend. For me, it was weekends. They were very difficult hurdles. But yeah, they're lies, they're lies. And I think that's the key gift. You know, when we talk about drinking and not drinking, that for me was the authenticity. You know, because I thought I was authentic when I was drinking.

in my cups when I would share my truth to anybody who'd be like, actually, I don't really want to hear that Liz. It's just kind of being obnoxious more than anything. But in my head, I was like, no, I'm going to say it. And that's not authenticity. That's, you know, that's just been an asshole.

Hamish (37:31)
You really wonder, don't you? You wonder what it was all about. I didn't have a community like that, but I did AA and NA for a while and I found that support, I found it really helpful. I didn't subscribe to every aspect of it. I don't like the fact that, hi, I'm Hamish and I'm an alcoholic because I...

Liz Folan (37:54)
Mm.

Hamish (37:57)
I know words have power and if I'm going to call myself something negative, it's going to sit on my shoulders and go, oi. So, you know, I don't agree with that, but I found it tremendously helpful. And you obviously did with the people that you were with. How did being sober and staying sober change your relationships with family members and friends? I mean, you said you've...

Liz Folan (38:23)
Yeah, I found, so I had a new tribe, which is great as a middle -aged woman, to kind of find new friends. You know, I love making friends and I love people. I get energy from people. And I think that's why I ended up teaching. That's why I loved being a waitress. I loved being a barmaid.

All of my jobs in the past when I've been growing up, because I worked in a bar when I was 15 in my auntie's bar. So all of the way up, I've always had jobs where I've interacted with people and I just love that social connection and it nourishes me. And I suppose I am an extrovert. So finding that social, that new group of friends, that was very...

really empowering. My traditional friends, friends I'd grown up with, I think some friends found it hard. Some friends who were, I was very much the party girl. I was very much like, Liz is going out. Jesus, it'll be a big one then. Do you know, I was that one where you rolled the eyes and I was, I was the one who'd sneak off to the loo and come back with a bottle of wine or round of shots.

I was always pushing for more, more, more. Let's go to the next place. Let's go more, more, more. And then people kind of got a bit bored with that sometimes. Or I'd get bored if people weren't drinking fast enough and I'd find other people, I'd go off. So they were kind of used to that. So those friends, friends I've had over the years who know that I drink like that and don't necessarily, because there was a few groups of friends who on my first Christmas.

when I wasn't drinking and we went out for kind of like a work -due, they elected not to drink. And I just thought, that is lovely. That is just so great, isn't it? I didn't say anything. But I was like, no, I'm not drinking. And I realized, I'm the one who's instigating most of the heavy drinking in this group. Because they sat there and they drank water really happily. And we, you know, we did a karaoke.

and it was a Christmas karaoke and we all sang and we've still got really gorgeous pictures of it and so a lot of my friends were really supportive. My sisters, my sister and my family at home really supported. My mother who was having her hot toddies every night suddenly stopped and didn't say a word. Didn't say a word until a year down the line and said, no I don't drink that stuff at all.

And every time I'd mention it, she'd say, fair play to you, fair play. Good, good. And so there was a very subtle kind of influence on some people. There was also that awkwardness of the, Liz is here. Let's just watch our drinking. And then it was almost like belt loosening when I'd leave. I felt that there was a bit of an inhalation.

Hamish (41:32)
Hmm.

Liz Folan (41:32)
when I'd be around, nothing was spoken about, but it was very much the elephant in the room. And even if I do, and I do still find that with some people, that some people, some people feel they have to ask, they'll say, do you mind if I have a glass of wine? I'm like, I don't care. I really don't care. You know, you wouldn't say, do you mind? Well, you would say if they're having it in your room, do you mind if I have a fag? But if they went outside for a cigarette, they wouldn't say, you don't mind if I, but so I think.

that it was quite difficult to navigate. And I still am navigating at Amish, if I'm honest. Because every time I go home to Ireland, it's like a different world, you know, rural Ireland and the way alcohol is celebrated and everybody talks about it. Young kids who were training or drinking after it, they go to the pub.

And the pub is important, social connection is important, small villages need some kind of social glue. But I just wish to God it wasn't so booze -fuelled because we still need to rewrite these stories that we tell ourselves, that we need this. And do you know what I find really difficult is the fact that you don't want to sound preachy, but it's like Plato's cave. You know the parable of

Plato's Cave. I learned this when I was, this really hit me when I was a kid. I did classical studies for my leaving syrup when I was in school, right? So I was about 17 when I found this story out and it's in the Republic. We did Plato. I was like, wow, how amazing is that? And Plato's Cave, it's basically this, he's talking about reality and he's talking about kind of higher awareness, I suppose. And he says that,

You know, we're like, we're in a cave, mankind, we're in a cave. And he said, it's like these prisoners who are in a cave and all they can see, they're sitting in the cave and they're chained. And all they can see, their reality, there's a fire and there's shadows and all they can see are the puppeteers and the shadows on the wall. The shadows on the wall of the things moving, that is their reality. And one day one of the prisoners breaks free.

and he crawls out of the cave and he goes out into the light and he pokes his head out and he gets blinded first by the sun because it's just so bright and he's been in the cave for so long. But then suddenly his eyes adjust and he starts to see shapes and he starts to see what looked like the shapes that were on the wall downstairs are now actual horses and men and women and various flowers and birds and trees.

And he's like, wow, this is it. This is the reality. So he goes back down into the cave and he says to all his mates, I've just broken free. This isn't it. This isn't reality. That is. And they murder him. But that's how I felt. That's how I can sometimes feel when I get passionate about this, because you go back and people go, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Only the other day somebody said, isn't it about time you gave the old talking about booze?

Hamish (44:39)
Yeah.

Liz Folan (44:53)
bit of a rest. And I was like, no, I'm never going to. As long as we live in an alcocentric society that glamorizes abnormal drinking. And it's not a judgmental thing. It's not a judgmental thing. It's just the awareness, you know, shaking free the shackles of being stuck in that cave and just looking at the shadows. Cause that's me drinking down there. That's drinking Liz.

Yeah, sober Liz is up there having the crack in the sunshine. I'd much prefer to be up there, thank you very much. But I want to bring you lot with me without you killing me. Thank you. Because I'm not gonna... So that I sometimes feel when I share this information that I can be shot down and I can be, you know, minimized and humiliated and told, put in my place. And that's why I feel it's a really brave thing to do to talk about this.

I feel it's a really brave thing to do because, you know, people want you to be that person who's rock bottom and that's it, or normal like the rest of us. And if you're not drinking, then you've got the problem. No, I'm sorry, it's a highly addictive substance. And the more you practice doing something, the more you get good at it. So I'm practicing doing the good stuff.

Hamish (46:20)
Absolutely. And it is difficult because alcohol works. However, like any crutch that keeps you up, they start to break and it does. And I think what you said there, it's so important. And...

Liz Folan (46:31)
Yeah, that's it.

Hamish (46:34)
I had to, when I broke out into the light, I had to build a boat around myself and that was, I know that I feel crap when I drink. I know that one isn't enough and a thousand is too many or the other way around, doesn't matter. I know that if I have one, that's it. And I know how bloody hard it was to stop. So there's no way I'm going to do it. I don't like how my head...

Liz Folan (46:47)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.

Yes. Yes.

Yeah.

Hamish (47:04)
changes after one drink. I don't like how my body changes. And it's almost like writing these down every morning. If I drink, I will. But it works. You know, I'm out in that sunshine with you and it's, it's flipping brilliant. It is really flipping brilliant. And it's...

Liz Folan (47:12)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

It's good, isn't it?

And do you know what, Hamish? We can dance and we can sing and we can have all the craic in the world and we don't need that substance. Who knew?

Hamish (47:31)
No, we don't need that substance. Yeah. And it doesn't matter if we make ourselves feel stupid because we've chosen it rather than tripped over something because we were staggering. Yeah.

Liz Folan (47:42)
This is the thing. This is, and with me, like I had tools like that. My biggest tool was NQTD. And the first place I heard NQTD was this woman, Holly Whittaker, and it was on the Home Podcast. Never Question The Decision. Now this is the issue, cognitive dissonance. It's a killer because you're saying, I'm not gonna drink. And then.

your subconscious has gone, yeah, whatever, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And that's why I say to people, affirmations are great. And neurons, we know this, yeah, neurons that wired together or that fired together, wired together. We know that, the more you practice it. And changing that negativity bias and saying, I am lovely, I am worthy, I'm whatever. But if your brain isn't believing it, then that's a nonsense. So one of the things that I did was, this is it.

that I made a decision because I have moderation on the table all the time. I'll just try one. I'm going to do it now where I'm just going to have, actually I won't drink wine, I'll just drink sherry, because it's really sickly. So I'll just, then you drink a bottle of sherry. Or I won't drink sherry. Do you know what I mean? It's just like, I'll just drink, I'll just buy minis. I'll just buy minis, because minis. But then you buy 10 minis instead of buying one big, yeah.

all of the lies and the craziness, moderation doesn't work. So once I realized all of these stupid games that I was playing with myself and all of these, you know, I kept, I kept bringing it in. The cognitive dissonance was there, you know, that I wanted to do something so badly that aligned with my values, not to drink and be healthy and be clear. And still it just got muddied. So never questioned the decision. NQTD. I wrote that everywhere.

I wrote that everywhere. That was on the mirror. That's in the bathroom. That was on the visor in the car. I was thinking whenever I sell this car, you just pull down the visor and it's just full of all of these aphorisms. But NQTD was everywhere. And then I had a bracelet with NQTD on. And it was just there and loads of us on Soberistas used NQTD. And there was also KOKO, which is keep on keeping on. And there was another one, which is I haven't come this far.

to only come this far. And I think that was a gift because even when you're having a wobble, and you will have wobbles because your brain is trained in such a way, if you've been drinking for 30 years or doing something for 30 years, and then suddenly you stop, it doesn't matter whether you're doing it every day or whether you're doing it all day or whether you're doing it every weekend or whether it's something you do when you're stressed or just something you do, you know, when you just want to have a blowout.

If your brain is trained to do that, you've got to keep disrupting that because it will keep coming back. So you've got to be aware. I think when you're aware of it then, when you're aware of that, when you're aware of that, the concept's called fading effect bias, or some people call it euphoric recall, you know. So it's like the further you get away from it, the more you're like, I wasn't really that bad. Yeah.

But I say it's like being in a coercive relationship. You know, the further away from it, you know, it will love bomb you. So you can go back and drink that wine and go, woo hoo, look at that, it's great, it loves me, I love it. Why do we ever split up wine, we're wonderful. But it won't last for long, that love bombing, it will be, it's short lived. So when you know that, I do believe that being aware, you know, forewarned is forearmed, isn't it?

Hamish (51:30)
I think that's really important. I love your NQTT. NQTD.

Liz Folan (51:36)
It's good, isn't it? NQTD. And I apply that to everything. The other thing I use, Hamish, which is great, is the whole econ -

economics of it. It's like, is this adding value to my life?

So it might add value, hedonically, in the short term. But, you know, you're borrowing from today. You know, you're borrowing from tomorrow. That's what it is, isn't it?

Hamish (51:59)
Absolutely. I think there's a couple of things you mentioned. One was identity. You know, we all for a while, that was our identity. You were the light and soul of the party. I was the light and soul of the party. And changing your identity isn't easy, but I love your, the process of your beliefs and through that way, because it is that and it is that awareness just to, is it bringing me value? Yes, for the moment. It's brilliant. Yep, I am.

Liz Folan (52:09)
Yeah. Yeah.

Hamish (52:28)
I am rock and roll. Everyone thinks I'm wonderful. Following morning, not so good. Bank balance, not so good. Work, you're drunk again, you're hung over again. You know, you're not going to get that promotion. It's not good medium term or long term. But so how would how would somebody who is on that fence, they know they've got that problem, they think they know they've got that problem. How would what would you say to them to sharpen that awareness and allow them to

see they've got a decision to make.

Liz Folan (53:00)
Yeah, I mean that's hard because a lot of people reach out to me and say, I think I've got a problem with booze and we talk about it and they identify with everything I say and we have similar stories and they try really hard and I give them tools but...

They have got to be at that stage of, you know, they can't be me in the back garden drinking wine with my mates, smoking fags, going, I get my email from soberistas. Yeah. And they have to, the first step I would say is honesty, self honesty and self awareness. Reach out by all means. I'm not saying to people, don't reach out, you know, become sober curious, really become sober curious or whatever.

habit change you want to change. So if it's giving up vaping, I've got a friend who vapes so much, she said to me, because we swim in the sea now, and she said, you know, when we're in the sea, I don't vape, I don't even think about it. It's amazing. I went, my God, is that how bad it is? She says, yeah, I wake up in the middle of the night. But she's aware of her addiction to it and would like to change it, but isn't quite at that stage yet.

So I think awareness is very important to start with. So start first of all, to look at how you drink or vape or smoke or gamble, whatever it is you're doing that you want to change. And then I would say immerse yourself in the believing stage. Start to actively use, use this, right? This is awesome. Get on it, get on your podcast app and put in, if you want to stop vaping, just put in vaping and see what comes up.

you'll find out some of the leading thought, you know, leaders on vaping, I suppose out there. They'll all be doing, they'll all be doing Diary of A CEO and all the podcasts. There's millions of them out there. So that's where you will find the best information and immerse yourself in it. Listen to what they say and start to follow people who have already done it ahead of you. And then start to actually think, can I do it myself? And then, you know, dip your toe in it. Be, be ginger.

with that, just don't expect big changes. See, this is the issue with behavior change, I find Hamish, and you probably will experience this too in your line of work, but also I think in your own experience. We make these swinging changes. So whenever I used to give up booze, I would also give up fags. I would also do a sugar detox. I would do a digital detox. I would also take up writing, you know what I mean? And I'd sign up for a marathon, you know?

because my entire life was going to change. And I say, just do the one thing. And this is advice I got from Laura McCowen, who's the other half of the Home Podcast. She said, treat it like you're pregnant. Treat it like, and even if you're a man, imagine nine months when you are in this stage of almost like you need to just rest and recover. So you need to...

you need to say no to those social engagements. If the kids are downstairs and they're demanding their dinner, look at, while you're knackered, because you will be knackered when you stop drinking, drinking especially is exhausting, isn't it? I mean, the first three months weren't like the first trimester of carrying my children, honest to God, I was wrecked. But like, if the kids are downstairs and there's nothing to feed them, throw the nuggets into the oven. You know, they're not gonna die. Let them have the Coco Pops, they're not gonna die.

You come first, that's the key thing. For those precious nine months, you come first. And I think if you do wrap yourself in cotton wool for that time and prioritize yourself, that is you putting on your oxygen mask. And that's the very first thing. But if you immerse yourself into the stories of everybody else, that will help. And I would also say play it forward.

always think that when you're having a bit of a wobble, think if I have this glass of wine or this cigarette or whatever it is, what's going to happen tomorrow morning? So just think about where that takes you to and use that. But I really think if you think of the believing part, beginning is the starting. So think about, you know, every single day putting things in your life that support you.

Hamish (57:17)
Yep.

Liz Folan (57:36)
So when you're in that nine month phase to start with, think about meditation. I'm not asking you to do loads and loads and loads, but maybe try and think about your breathing. You know, follow people who might be able to help you with that area. Think about journaling. Think, but you're not going to write a novel, so just get that off the table to start with. Let's just set the bars low. But you know, think about going for runs. Think about doing things that nourish you. But I'm not saying sign up for a marathon.

Think about adding in daily practices that will support you. But my biggest piece of advice, 100 % and this is Johan Hari, a quote from him from Lost Connections, the opposite to addiction is what, Hamish? 100%.

Hamish (58:22)
It is connection. And I was going to quote him in a few minutes time. Absolutely. Yeah.

Liz Folan (58:29)
That was the driving force of my own study. They say research is me -search. That is it. The opposite to addiction is connection. So don't do this alone. Whether you do sign up for a smart recovery program or a 12 -step program. - Hamish, I know loads and loads of my friends, loads of friends who I've found over the past six years since I've been sober are in AA and in recovery programs and speak really, like they're great because they,

Hamish (58:30)
Hmm.

Thank you.

Liz Folan (58:59)
In the 12 step program, you get to the good parts of it. I'm not into the shame bit and the anonymity and the I'm broken. I don't, I'm not going to talk about that. I'm a positive psychologist. I don't give a shit about what's wrong. I want to see what's strong in you. Let's talk about what's strong. Because when you get to this level, you are broken. You're on your knees. You want to build up. I don't want to keep telling myself that I'm crap and I did this and that. It happened. It's gone. Go. Let's move on. Let's move on.

Hamish (59:15)
Absolutely.

Liz Folan (59:28)
Let's celebrate our strength. But what I always say is reach out and find a tribe. Whether it's, there's a recovery running tribe that we have done in the park in Sefton Park every Sunday at nine o 'clock. A fella set that up, a guy called Steve, awesome thing going on. There are so many other things that you can find. Go online, look for Sober Communities. There's Be Sober, there's so many out there now.

And I think, and I would say the same is for everything, isn't it? Whether you're recovering from an illness, whether you're, you know, you've given up another form of, you know, whether you're recovering from some form of trauma. There are groups that I really would recommend find that support system as well as everything else that you do, because that's so nourishing. And you'll need that all your life. And you'll use it in various ways. You know, you might not.

Like I don't check in, I hardly check in on soberistas now, but I'm a lifelong member. I'll always pay my fees because it's been so good to me. And I'll always write blogs and post them there to help other people because I think that's being of service and I'm always available for people who need support there. And I think that's, I think giving back is a key to helping as well, isn't it? For you, for your own mental health.

Hamish (1:00:51)
Absolutely. No, I think you're you're you're spot on for you know, the the giving up is is the giving back is so incredibly important because you are proof I am proof that it's possible to sober up to get over whatever it is, whatever addiction and that's you know, you can go to a psychologist who's got lots of letters after their name, but if they haven't been to those lows, you you don't have that resonance. And I think I think that is in

Liz Folan (1:01:07)
Yeah. Yeah.

No. No.

Hamish (1:01:21)
incredibly important. Just acknowledge what you're doing there, giving back and helping because it's remarkable. One thing I wanted to talk about is the self -shaming aspect of drinking, of addiction. I threw empty bottles out of my car, I drove drunk and I'm not proud of that. That was less shameful than

Liz Folan (1:01:45)
Mmm.

Hamish (1:01:50)
being found at home with empty bottles of alcohol. And it's a horrible thing to say, yeah, I was doing that. And it would be one, two, three, smash. I can hear them. And that shame, I can either carry with me or go, well, I was doing the best I could. And you can't carry it with you. You just, you can't. Otherwise it's gonna, you're gonna have that next drink.

Liz Folan (1:01:54)
Wow.

Hamish (1:02:18)
That's what I did. I don't care. How do we? Yeah. But how do we?

Liz Folan (1:02:21)
You've got, it's not only that, hey, but she eats you from within. That's gonna eat you from within. It's all.

Hamish (1:02:30)
learn to let go of that shame because it's only us beating ourselves up. How do we release that? Because that's where the magic is. That's where you're going to really start to overcome anything.

Liz Folan (1:02:42)
Yeah, that's self -compassion. That's, I think, one of the most important things my counselor said to me was as I got that clarity and I started to backpedal and think about the things I had done and why did I make that choice and why am I stuck there and why am I in this and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And she said to me,

you did the best you could with the tools you had at the time. Yeah. She said that girl who you were did the best she could with the tools she had. Drink was a tool. Drink was a tool, you know. So it's not, we know that it's not the drink. It's us. It is a tool that we use as a coping mechanism to deal. And I think developing...

a habit of self -compassion and that means, and that's why I'm so staunchly pro positive psychology in the tools that I use. So the first thing I do with somebody is I give them access to the VIA character strength survey and it's viacarracter .org. It's free. It was developed by Martin Seligman 20 years ago and you go on it, you find out what your top character strengths are.

and they are your defining characteristics. They're not set, they can move. So when I did it first, I got love of learning, because I was in the middle of a masters, but in my top five were curiosity, creativity, gratitude, appreciation of beauty and excellence. I was like, this is cool, I love this. And then when I did it second, I got creativity as my top one, because I was in the middle of setting up my own business. So they're gonna empower you. And because it's evidence -based,

because it's a psychological tool, it's a measurement tool. When you get that information, you can actually create a new story for yourself. You can say, actually, the reason why I was a bit of a piss head and a bit of a risk taker was because curiosity is one of my top, I'm just a nosy cow. So I'd say, I wonder what happens if I mix this with this and whoa, that's great. So I think, you know, you can reinvent, because it's all about the stories we tell ourselves.

If we tell ourselves a story that we are worthless, if we tell ourselves a story that we are broken, if we tell ourselves a story that we drank because we were unworthy, that story becomes our life. It's still our narrative. We've got control. And we know that, and this is what I love about psychology, because we can create new neural pathways.

limiting beliefs. I love Carol Dweck's work as a teacher. I used to always love her work about growth mindsets. You don't have to be, you know, I'm no good at that. Well, actually, no, nobody is until they actually start practicing it. I was no good at drinking until I started drinking all the time. Then I became really good at it. Then I could drink any man under the table. So it's like, you know, and I was no good at sobriety until I started practicing that.

And now I think I'm pretty bossy actually, I'm a bit of a badass when it comes to it. And that's the thing as well. I have changed the narrative. So I'm no longer, I'm not a victim. You know, I am a sober badass. I am a sober rebel. I swim against the tide of, you know, social expectation and what we do. Yeah, this is countercultural what we're doing. This is countercultural. It's amazing. How exciting is that? We're on the cusp of a revolution. So.

Start to empower yourself with different stories. And then the shame just goes away. You're like, yeah, so I did that. So I had bottles under my bed. Yeah, so what? That was me then. I was doing the best I could. I was dealing with it the best I could. Look under my bed now. There's nothing there. Do you know, it's grand. Except my running shoes because I'm going to go and I'm training for a marathon because I'm actually doing it now, whatever it is. And I think that's the key. That's really the key.

Hamish (1:06:48)
Mm -hmm.

Liz Folan (1:06:52)
Be aware of the stories that you tell yourself. Be present to the thoughts that come into your mind. That's why every time I set a challenge, part of it's going to be a self -awareness piece. So I will always have prompts on my social media that remind people, you know, what are you telling yourself today? Who are you today? How are you showing up for yourself today? How are you interacting with others, even difficult people? And you know, when people say, my son only said to me yesterday when we were having dinner.

And he said something about me not drinking wine. And I said, because I'm sober. And he said, but you're not really sober. I mean, it's not like you were like rock bottom because he's now started to listen to Joe Rogan and other podcasts and, you know, celebrities talking about their stories. And I said, no, I still regard myself as sober. And I still think that that's an amazing thing to be. And I'm, I, even if you find that term strange, he's like, but it's not like you had a problem. I said, I did have a problem because if.

If I can't stop taking a substance, if I decide that I want to do something and I break promises to myself because I don't do that thing, that is a problem. I said, and that was a problem. If I say I'm going to have one glass and a bottle and a half, that's a problem. It's a problem. You know, so I think that's the key thing is to be aware of who, what, what you're telling yourself and challenge it. Just keep challenging it.

I say, I have a thing for students. I call it when the ants come in, the automatic negative thoughts. I say, turn them into PETS. Turn your ANTS into PETS. Make them positive, empowering thoughts. And I said, the way you can do that is you can stamp on the ants is one of the ones I say. Stop S, stop. T, tackle it. Tackle that thought. A, ask. Ask yourself, is it true?

find a new mantra. So I'll say to my students, you know, what's your top character strength? Kindness. Change that I am lazy to, I am kind. And then P, practice. Write that down. Put it on the wall. Put it on your mirror. Put it on your hand. Put it wherever. Get a tattoo. No, don't get a tattoo because your mother will kill me. But you know what I mean? And then have it there to remind you and instead of going,

Hamish (1:09:14)
Mm -hmm. Yeah.

Liz Folan (1:09:19)
my God, the shame, the shame. Go, yeah, but I'm actually really kind. Or I'm, I love learning or I am safe. I am capable. I've given, and I think one of the things about this is when we know this Hamish, when we stop drinking or do something that's really difficult, we do become badass in every area of our lives. Cause we think I've done that. Jesus, I can stand on a stage and talk cause I've given up booze.

I can leave this job and set up a business, I've given up booze. I can, you know, find a few pence to rub together when times are tough because I've given up booze. So I think we can do anything when we have said, when we're committing to something that we've promised ourselves that we're going to do and we actually keep our promise to ourselves. My God, we've got power beyond belief. Isn't it true though?

Hamish (1:10:14)
It absolutely is. And there's so much, so much that you've said. And I think I struggle with keeping promises for myself. And when I do, I feel a million dollars. And just, you know, I did that today. I did that today. I said, I'll do that. And I've done it. Yeah, I'm quite proud of my checklists. They help. But making promises and keeping promises to yourself is...

It's just incredibly important. It's incredibly empowering. And right at the beginning of this conversation, you talked about sparks. And every promise you make to yourself is that little spark of light just going up. And yeah, tick, there's another one. So if I have a slip, it doesn't matter because I'm slowly putting those sparks making my world lighter. If I have a shit day and if I fall or if I stumble or if I have a drink, it's not going to kill you because you've

Liz Folan (1:10:53)
Yeah

Yeah

Yeah.

Yeah.

in.

Hamish (1:11:10)
built up, you've rewired, you've got those sparks and you can get back off your knees again, dust them off and go oops I'm still a badass and yeah.

Liz Folan (1:11:12)
Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah, that's why I've said so one of the quotes that I use a lot is from Rich Roll and I don't know where he got it. You know, he's a podcaster who I listen to. He's an ultra marathon guy because he has to be like extreme. You can't just be a marathon runner. It has to be like the extreme. But his one is mood follows action. And I love that mood follows action. So I use that a lot. But the reason why I said believing plus beginning equals becoming is because the action bit.

We can be, if we fall off sometimes, I've given you permission to start again by beginning, beginning. So it's just putting, it's like, okay, I'm off, but we know that once we have momentum, the power of momentum is incredible. So we don't want to fall off because beginning is bloody hard. And once we've become, then we can start to believe in the next thing and then begin that. Because everybody who starts something is always going to be shit at it.

And I think when you realise that that beginning bit gives you permission to be a bit rubbish, you know, to be a bit like, I tried and I, the amount of people who say to me, I tried, yeah, I did, I don't do meditation because like I did it once, it was crap. I didn't, yeah, I came out, I didn't feel in any way enlightened. You're like, yeah, you did it once, maybe. It's like going to the gym and going, I went to the gym once, I came out, I didn't even, still had a belly. What's that all about? What do you expect?

But I do think that the beginning bit has a little bit of forgiveness there. So believing plus beginning equals becoming. Because I do really genuinely think that the more you begin and the more you start to show up, and I think that happiness, happiness is there. Happiness we create, it's there. But it's not something that's just going to fall upon us. It won't fall out of the sky. It's a practice. And the more we practice it,

the more we are able to access it. And I think that that's the joy. The joy of dealing is post -traumatic growth is what they call it in positive psychology. The blessing of having to face into shit because pain is inevitable, isn't it? Pain is inevitable in life. Suffering is optional. Suffering is the story we tell ourselves. If you tell yourself that you're shameful,

and that you're crap and you're broken. That's the story you've told yourself. There's your suffering right there. So I think what I'm talking about is acceptance really, isn't it? It's all about acceptance. Because when you start to remember, and that's acceptance and commitment therapy, there's a whole branch of positive psychology called acceptance and commitment therapy. And that's what that's all about. It's about being present, being mindful enough to go, okay.

right? That's what happened. I accept that part of me. I love that part of me. I'm compassionate and then move on. And I actively stop people in my, if I'm with somebody in company and they say, God, I'm so stupid, I will call them out. I've got so trained in my own head to stopping that thought process that I stop students in classrooms, friends.

anybody I meet, the girl behind the desk and wherever in Asda, but I make sure that if somebody says that I'll say, no, no, no, I'm going to change that, please, change that thought, because that's just a habit. And that's a negative habit because those thoughts don't just sit there, do they? Those automatic negative thoughts, they create a chemical process in our bodies and they create cortisol and all the crap. So we don't want that. So that's why I think self -shaming is toxic. It's disgusting.

It's unnecessary. How can that be a helpful tool?

Hamish (1:15:17)
No. Madness.

Liz Folan (1:15:20)
Self -compassion is a power. Self -compassion is where the hidden power lies.

Hamish (1:15:25)
Absolutely. Wow Liz, that was remarkable. I could listen to you talk all day. Not quite sure how you can respond to that one. So moving on quickly, I think that has been really very, very special. How can people find out a little bit more about you?

Liz Folan (1:15:37)
I'm going to go to bed.

They could that I have my own podcast with Julia Carson who is the writer of this book. This is this isn't a plug for poor old Julia. She's gonna be mortified if she sees this she'd like why you do that? But it's just because it's up here on my my shelf sober positive. It's called Julia Carson She's my mate from sober istas and our podcast is called Rise the Rise Podcast

Hamish (1:15:54)
Hahaha!

Liz Folan (1:16:09)
So you can find me on my website at LizFowlan .com.

So my writings there you can find me on Instagram as @ Sunrise Sobriety Which is really interesting that this is called awakenings because my tag I went for sunrise because when I was sober I felt like it was just a new day and and just the sunrise and I was actually awake at sunrise without been hammered the night before and it was like Wow, this is amazing. I

So Sunrise Sobriety, my tagline is wide awake to an alcohol free life because I felt wide awake, still do. So I post a lot of positive psychology content there. And also on LinkedIn, I'm Liz Folan, MSC positive psych because I paid a lot of money for my MSC. So I may as well stick that at the end of my name. I'm bloody, I'm bloody wearing that because I paid for it. So it is a bit.

Hamish (1:17:07)
Absolutely.

Liz Folan (1:17:09)
clunky as well. I might change it. I'll change it eventually. But at the moment I'm leaving that there just for another while just to milk it for as much as I can. And yeah, and yeah, I do a little radio slot every Friday morning on Liverpool local radio called Liverpool live radio .com with a guy called Roy Bassner. It's feel good Friday. And I usually have guests on we talk about positive psychology, we talk about habits.

We talk about exercise, we talk about everything that you can do to nourish yourself. And I love it. And it's between 11 and 12. So you can get that on the Listen Again feature, or you can listen to it online. You can listen to it on your phone. Or if you're in the north west of England, you can hear it as you're driving around if you want to. But yeah, that's every Friday. And yeah, that's basically where you can find me on the

I'd love to hear from anybody if they're interested in maybe trying sobriety or if you're like me and you think, yeah, I don't drink every day. I don't drink all day, you know, but I do seem to drink quite a lot. I have a dodgy off switch when it comes to booze.

and you might be questioning it, then I would love to talk to you. I don't care who's out there. I'm always there to listen and to support because there were people there for me when I needed them. So, yeah, it'd be nice to hear from people.

Hamish (1:18:36)
That is wonderful. And I'm sure with the energy and the self -compassion and how you've shared today, there will be people reaching out to you because you've just got that lovely warm feeling that it's okay. It's okay to fxxk up. Life goes on and the awareness and everything. And I think that is super. And thank you. Yeah.

Liz Folan (1:18:51)
Yes! Yes!

Yeah, you're so welcome. And it's so true, isn't it? It's just so true. There's so many people who are in pain, Hamish. And so many people who are suffering. And this is what Martin Seligman, who set up Positive Psychology, went down and invested all the money into it when he became the president of the American Psychological Association back in 2000. He was sick of seeing people languishing and stuck. All the money was going into the suffering. But what about the rest of us? What about people who were just there?

Hamish (1:19:03)
Hmm. Yeah.

Liz Folan (1:19:27)
Living lives of quiet desperation. You know, I see them all the time. There's no need for it. There's no need for it.

Hamish (1:19:33)
Absolutely not. Well, I have one last question for you Liz. And this question is a very important question. What is your superpower? What was the gift or the superpower you got from your awakening?

Liz Folan (1:19:38)
Mmm.

Yeah, I would say my superpower is sobriety. It is sobriety, 100%. Yeah, it's, and I say, and I share that with everyone. And I say that myself on my own podcast, because we ask the same question. And I get the students when I work with teenagers to find out their superpowers. And I usually use it for character strengths, you know, tell them what your superpower is.

But I will tell them it's sobriety for me because my superpower gives me my authenticity and my clarity. And I think that that authenticity enables me to reach other people, like you were saying, and the people who shared authentically before me were able to reach me. So I think that can save people. So as a result, that makes it, it saved me. My sobriety saved me. And I think as a result,

That sobriety saves so many other people and will continue to save people as long as I'm on this planet. That's my superpower.

It's a great question. It's a great question. Have you had some good answers? I bet you have.

Hamish (1:20:50)
Yeah.

I have had so good answers, yes. And what often happens is, "Hmm, what is my superpower?" There is a pause for a couple of seconds and then, because everyone knows what their superpower is because they've, they're living it and it just pours out and it's lovely to see and it surprises people.

Liz Folan (1:21:16)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's why I love working with character strengths, because people don't realise what their strengths are, but they do. And a lot of the time they get the results and go, yeah, and yeah, I know that. But also a lot of the time they get the results and kind of go, yes, I'm so glad I got creativity or, God, I'm so glad I didn't get bloody prudence as my top one. That's me.

or humility. Jesus, who needs that? It's overrated. But to me, there are some boring ones, but it's so funny. But without fail, the people who get, you know, when they get their results, they like their top five. Nobody's like, I don't want that. I wanted this one. Most people want humor to be in their top five. It's really mad, isn't it? But it makes sense. But yeah, you'll have to do that. Have you done the VIA character strength test?

Hamish (1:22:14)
No, that's something I want to, I want

Liz Folan (1:22:16)
Get everybody, I really urge you. And if you do do it and you want to reach out, listeners, then reach out to me and tell me what your strengths are. Because part of my Rise Sunshine Challenge, that obviously me and my challenges, the current challenge is all through the summer, I want people to do four things, R -I -S -E. I always have to have acronyms.

So R is for reflection, I is for inspiration, S is for self awareness and self thought and self talk and E is for exercise. There's always an exercise component to all of my challenges. R is reflection. I want you to write down one, two, three. one win from the previous 24 hours, two strengths that you have used. So that means you'll have to do the VIA strengths test so you know what the rest of the 24 are.

go and reflect over them and then write them. And three, gratitude, because gratitude as a practice we know is absolutely transformational. But now we know the science behind it. It's even more powerful. The i bit is inspiration. So I have a little book club. So every month I have a new title. This month's title, in fact, I think it's here, is only because it's cheap and in Tesco at the moment.

ultra -processed people. It's half price in Tesco. But also because this fella, Chris Van Tolican, he was interviewed on Diary of a CEO last week and it was a brilliant, brilliant interview. And it's so interesting because I'm always struggling with nourishment. And this is actually helping me. The way my brain was reprogrammed with booze when I read Annie Grace's This Naked Mind, this is doing the same.

So it doesn't demonize food, but it just lets you know what the story is behind it. That's this month's one. That's the inspiration bit. So I want you to read for half an hour every day or listen to a book or something. Previous books have been Atomic Habits by James Clear, Nurt Isles, here we go. Indistractable. And yes, Amy Liptrot's The Outrun. That was another one that I had on my list.

Hamish (1:24:23)
Hehehehehe

Liz Folan (1:24:35)
and because I launched it in March, the Badass Book Club for World Book Day because I'm an English teacher by trade. And then the S is self -awareness and self -talk. So I want you just not to write anything or do anything just to be more aware of your thoughts for the summer. And E is exercise outdoors every day for 20 minutes at least. And that's the Rise Sunshine Challenge that I launched back at the beginning of May. We're now in June. I don't know when this goes out. This might be a few weeks before this goes out.

But this will go out in the summer, won't it? Do you think you'll launch this? So this will be going on all summer long. So whenever you come to this podcast in the summer, and if you do happen to come to it later in the year, there'll be another challenge, because I always have challenges. But usually there's going to be a reflective piece, a reading piece, a thought piece, and an exercise piece to all my challenges, because I think they're the four pillars that keep me sane every day. And it's just about consistency, showing up every day.

to do it. But yeah, don't know how did we get onto that talking about our superpowers, wasn't it? Yes. Yes. Yeah, to give you the link for the VIA character strengths.

Hamish (1:25:39)
Superpowers, yeah.

Cool, well, I will definitely be your R.I.S.E challenge. I do the exercise every day. I do my gratitude every day and 100 % agreement with you. It is so powerful. It allows me just to remember what I did yesterday. And if I can just be grateful for cleaning my teeth because the rest of the day has been rubbish, I've cleaned my teeth. It is so powerful.

Liz Folan (1:25:49)
Yes. Good. Good.

Yeah, that's it. That's it. I mean, just anything at all. It's knowing that it doesn't have to be a big thing. It can be anything. Just like listening to the birdsong outside. You know, we're gifted. We're so blessed. And when we count our blessings, our blessings just come. More blessings come, I think. And I think that's a lovely mindset to have. And that's been really important as a tool as well to help me when things have been tough.

Hamish (1:26:35)
Liz, thank you ever so much for your time, your enthusiasm, your challenges, the Character Strengths website and everything. It's been fabulous. Thank you so much.

Liz Folan (1:26:41)
you

it's been lovely to be here and to share this with you as well. Hamish, it's been lovely and I wish you the best for the podcast. I'm really looking forward to listening to them. They're going to be amazing. So well done. I'm glad you're doing this. It's going to be a great project.

Hamish (1:27:02)
Thank you ever so much.

Hamish Niven (1:27:04)
Thank you for listening to this episode of The Crucible, Conversations for the Curious. If these powerful stories of transformation resonated with you, be sure to like, subscribe and share this show with anyone who you think could do with a dose of inspiration for their own journey. I would really appreciate it if you could make any comments on your favourite podcast platform as well, that helps me reach more people. All the important links and information are in the show notes below. Thank you very much for listening and catch up with you soon.