The Crucible:Conversations for the Curious

Hamish Niven (00:03)
Welcome to The Crucible, Conversations for the Curious. I'm Hamish, your host.

In each episode you'll hear from everyday people who've been through profound life altering experiences, from life threatening illnesses or accidents, deep existential crisis, addiction, or having to make life choices that have ultimately brought them peace, connection and purpose. They've all stared into the abyss, walked through the fire of their own personal dark nights of the soul, and emerged from the other side transformed. This podcast is for anyone going through an awakening, a time of massive change, or questioning the

meaning of life. You are not alone. You can get through this. I promise you life is more meaningful and beautiful on the other side.

Hamish (00:48)
Hi and welcome to another episode of The Crucible Conversation to the Curious. Today I'm here with Barbara. Thank you ever so much for turning up today, Barbara. Can you tell me a little bit about your journey, please?

Barbara Ellis (01:04)
Wow, Hamish, where would you like me to start? Okay, I have come on quite a journey. It's been a number of years of evolving to where I am now. And it all started back, way, way back in my early years when I had a horrific accident. And I didn't really at the time connect it to how it was going to impact my life.

and beyond, you know, just getting through that moving on and yeah, it was, you talk about an awakening and it was, it was one day when I was sitting in a consultant's office looking at my own MRI scans and seeing what this, how this accident had impacted me. And it was like this, that sort of moment. my word, I've lived all these years with all this pain and being in such a

a state that I hadn't connected the fall that I'd had to this problem with my back and everything. And it was like a light bulb moment going off thinking, how am I so disconnected to my own body that I hadn't realized quite how impactful the accident had been on me? And it was like, how did I not know this? It was like, you know, so what did I do? I had to find a way of...

reconnecting to my body, reconnecting to myself and that's what I've been doing over the last 20 years really, and keeping myself healthy and that's what I love to share with people that we don't have to live in pain and be... I'm not going... I can't use that word, I was going to say crippled but I was crippled with pain, it was quite horrible.

one point I was in a wheelchair and my family was impacted, my life was impacted. So when I finally found, I wouldn't say a cure, but I found the source of where I could actually find my own health and wellbeing. And that's what I share with people now.

Hamish (03:23)
So you ended up in a wheelchair after an accident. So how did you turn your life around? Because obviously you're walking, I've seen you doing yoga and teaching Qigong, so you're no longer there. How did you manage to heal yourself, I suppose, for want of a better description?

Barbara Ellis (03:42)
Well, I wasn't in the wheelchair for a long time. It was a spell of when I was at one of my worst points. It wasn't straight after the accident. It was some years later. The impact of the accident over the years had created a deterioration in my spine and it created compression of two discs at the lower and the lumbar region. And that...

over time, each time I had an episode made it worse to the point where the pain in my leg became so bad I couldn't walk. And so I had to go anywhere, everywhere in a wheelchair. So I wasn't in the wheelchair all the time. It was just, I can manage around the house. I would hobble about, but when I finally realised that it was beyond, I had to have an operation in the end to fix.

lower spine but it had also impacted further up my spine in my chest and in my neck which created another problem and it was that that took me to the consultant where I had the MRI scans, and seeing those scans made me realise that I could end back up in a wheelchair if I didn't start taking better care of myself so I went on a journey.

And it was quite by accident, pardon the pun, that I ended up training in a modality of Chinese medicine that enabled me to get better. And the first part of it was between a massage, which I was actually encouraged to go and get a certificate to get a

a certificate in massage because of the job I was doing at the time. Taking the timeline has changed a little bit. When I was working as a speech therapist, I was preparing a communication system for young students with severe communication problems. And we were doing a sort of multi -sensory communication program. Of course, one of the senses is touch.

And in education, you're not allowed to touch people. Excuse me. And so they said to me, well, if you get a massage certificate, you can you can do this. You can use all the senses. You can use touch. So I went off and found this wonderful massage called Tui na. And Tui na is Chinese is a modality of traditional Chinese medicine. There's acupuncture.

Qigong, Tui na and herbs. And I was doing this Tui na. And when I was actually training, I was being given the massage by other students. And so we were sharing as we were learning. And it was just an absolute mind blowing change to my health. 10 days of intensive work on my body. I came back feeling absolutely fantastic. All the pain in my leg had gone.

which had been residual pain from all the episodes on my back prior to this. And I was able to walk properly. I was able to hold my posture better. I felt fabulous. And I just thought, do you know what? I've got to learn this. So I went into work on that Monday morning after doing the training and I rose to my resignation and left my job as a speech therapist to go and train in Traditional Chinese Medicine.

and I haven't looked back since.

Hamish (07:34)
you realised that if you didn't change how you were in the world, you were going to end up stuck in that wheelchair. So you actively looked for some practice or some way of healing and tell me a little bit about that process. You were looking, you started to change your, your awareness of your body. Cause I think that's probably where we need to go with this, isn't it?

Barbara Ellis (07:58)
Yeah, what happened was after I had been told, actually when I saw the MRI scans, my consultant said to me, have you ever had an impact injury? And it was one of those questions I thought, well, what do you mean? And he said, well, looking at your spine, you've had three areas that have been affected. That's your lower back, your middle back and your neck, which is why you've come to me with

to get these scans done. And I had to think at the time, well, what could have caused this? Now, you may think that I had this serious fall way back in my twenties, that I would have connected to that fall. But I had come through it, you know what you're like when you're young, you just get on. I mean, yes, I was in a lot of pain for weeks after that fall. And what I had done slipped on a marble staircase.

and the impact had gone right through my spine. Now, umpteen episodes later of having other falls and being a little out of balance, probably because of this impact injury, created more problems in my lower back, which then resulted in this, an operation. But then when it impacted on my neck, the consultant said to me,

How could you not have connected that fall to all the episodes of the problems that you'd have over the years? And I just thought, I just didn't, I just didn't. And it was that light bulb moment of thinking, my gosh, I am so disconnected. And when I left his office, I knew I had to find a way to ensure that I did not end up having the same issues of being in a wheelchair or the pain that I'd be suffering.

So I went on this journey of looking for alternatives and I did acupuncture. I had, I can't say that it made a huge difference because I had this residual pain in my leg. It was the damage to the sciatic nerve. And some days I would end up, some nights I'd wind up screaming in pain with cramps. And if I did any type of exercise, it seemed to make it worse.

And so there was journey of finding something that would take away the pain in my leg. I did physio. I saw a chiropractor. I saw I tried osteopathy. And everything just seemed to aggravate the problem in my leg. And it wasn't until I actually found and went on this course and had Tui na massage.

because they looked at the whole body, it wasn't just one, I know chiropractors do that and osteopaths do it as well, but it felt as if because I was actually getting deep tissue massage, I was getting it deep into the lower layers, right down to the nerves, right down into my whole body. It changed everything. The pain went away. I was able to walk properly. I was able to stand well.

and I could feel my balance was more in, well it was more in balance. I wasn't feeling like I was going to fall over or my legs were going to give way. And it was just that whole...

And when I got to work the next day, people said to me, have you been on holiday? And I said, no, I've been working. I've been learning this amazing massage. And it was like, well, we want some of that. And that was like, yeah, you're going to get some of that because that's what I want to learn. And that was my journey into healing my own body. And from that point of going back, giving up my job, going to learn.

more about traditional Chinese medicine, I was introduced to Qigong and that was a game changer and has been for the last 20 years.

Hamish (12:15)
Brilliant. So tell me about the Qi-gong then. It's movement isn't it, but it's more than just that.

Barbara Ellis (12:22)
It's the connection that is, it's like when we move our body, we tend to just, you know, like if you're breathing, for instance, we just take a breath. We don't think about it. We don't kind of experience really, or think about what it feels like for us when we breathe. But when we really focus our mind to the breath and reconnecting your thoughts with that.

feeling of the air going in, expansion of your muscles, the expansion of your ribs and the pushing down of your diaphragm. And when you're feeling that air is going down into your body and you're actually connecting to that, that's what Qigong does. It connects to everything, every movement, whether you're moving your hand in a particular way.

And you're moving your hand so that you're conscious of it. You're conscious of that movement. And you're allowing your body to realise what does that feel like? Feeling the air passing your hand. And the movements that we do in Qigong are gentle, but they're strength building and they also help with flexibility. So it's an all round, for me, it's the connection. It's...

It's that connection to the movement, to the feeling of the movement and to what that does for you when you do it. And when you really, really get into that kind of, it's almost like a trance, but you're still conscious of it where you're actually moving the body. To me, it's the ultimate form of exercise. And because it connects to my body, it's that whole body connection.

And though all forms of Chinese medicine, even acupuncture and the massage, everything is interrelated. That we look at the way that the body moves, the way the energy flows through our body. And qigong is made up of two words, qi and gong. And qi is energy, life force, whatever you want to call it. It's that kind of everything to do with what you breathe in, what you put in with your food.

and how that is all transformed internally. And also what happens around your body, all that energy around you, the air, the sunlight, the rain, everything to do with nature. And it's this wholeness of all of that coming together. And the gong part of the word is movement. So we're moving the energy. We're moving the energy right down to the cellular level internally.

taking it all the way out to the external and beyond into the universe and nature.

Hamish (15:21)
journey of discovery, what started to change? I mean, you said you started to reconnect with yourself, but what other feelings and emotions came up as you...

began to make sense of where you were and where you wanted to get to.

Barbara Ellis (15:37)
When you connect into your own body, after all, we only have one body. And it is this for me, that moment of realising if I didn't take better care of it, it's the only one I've got. It's the only body that I am ever going to have. And that's that I wanted to be able to move with ease. I wanted to be able to feel pain free and to feel energised.

And where this has taken me over the years is that as I'm getting older, yes, there are times when I, my body may think you're getting older. And I'm not saying I don't accept getting older. I do. It's just that I would like to do it with more ease and comfort and not to feel that.

age is something that is going to stop me achieving anything. And as I've gone through the years of practicing Chinese medicine and various other modalities, I've become more and more connected into that mind body ability to realise that everything else is important externally, but if you're not well internally and you're not feeling great,

everything else outside is an effort and it becomes possibly with pain, with not being able to sleep, stress, anxiety and what I have discovered over the years at various practices coming into my clinic and where I'm going with this is actually I want to reach more people. Being in a clinic I'm only really reaching one to one.

I can do Qigong classes and I can reach more people. But I'd love to, I want to take my journey next to reaching even more people, to showing them that it is possible to, as we do get older, to stay healthy and fit and to sleep better, to lose weight, to feel that energy. And I feel more vitalized and energized than I have done.

the years before I started this journey. And it's continuing on as I, I'm not willing to give up peacefully. I'm just keeping going. I'm developing an understanding more about my own body. And in doing that, I want to share it with other people. And the more people I can reach, the better they will feel.

Hamish (18:24)
think that's fantastic, just that understanding of what you've gone through, that experience of what you've gone through and the results. And then you've got to go, I want to share this because it is incredibly important and it must have been really scary just to sort of get more and more more and realising that you are just not connected.

Barbara Ellis (18:29)
Thank you.

Hamish (18:45)
What makes that disconnection become such a damaging part of our life?

Barbara Ellis (18:51)
I think a lot of it is to do with the way we're living our lives. We are not just disconnected to our bodies, we're actually disconnected to society. And a lot of this around the stress that we're all living through more recently is beginning to impact our health. We had COVID where we were isolated from each other. Some people died from it. And...

The loss on all of this has impacted us quite significantly mentally as well as physically. I think I may have just had COVID recently, another form of it, which is why I'm left with this kind of constant clearing my throat.

But I'm aware that there are things I can do to help relieve that. And I've come through it fairly quickly, which is really good. And that goes to prove to me that I take care of my body, that I'm looking after it and eating well. I'm moving. I take exercise, Qigong, and I swim when I can. And so there's things that we can do to help to keep ourselves well, but there's...

There seems to be this, we're in such a rush all the time. We seem to feel that we've got to achieve so much in the day. And our society, I do believe, is putting that pressure on us as well. Some people are working two or three jobs. I mean, that just is nuts. Excuse me for saying that, but it really is. It's like, why are we having to live this life of rushing from here to there?

making demands on ourselves that this is where the disconnection is coming because we're not realising what is happening to our bodies. And I was like that. I was like that in my younger years. I thought I was invincible. I didn't, you know, and I had an accident, so I thought I could just get through it and there would be no more consequences. But there were. And it's not until I realised the consequences of that fall and how many other falls I had since then.

were due to that first impact and having that disconnection is what many people live with because we're just living our lives and and if when we I have come to the conclusion that when we actually reconnect with our own self and our own bodies and how we think about our health then it's it it it

can change hugely how people can make that adjustment to taking better care of themselves. And by doing that, they're able then to care for others. We're constantly using up this energy that I talk about, this chi, this whatever, you know, this life force. We only have one life. Let's live it to the full, but not to the point where we're wearing ourselves out.

that we could take more time to just be at peace and sit for a few moments each day and just allow ourselves to reconnect with who we are and our body in our mind and the physical.

Hamish (22:20)
What can we suggest to people that will help them to reconnect, to help them slow down and feel their bodies, feel and begin to practice a little bit more self care?

Barbara Ellis (22:35)
Okay, well, I start with the breath and we all breathe, we have to. It's one of those things that we're probably not conscious of it until we actually think about it. And I understand that there are some people like yourself, Hamish, who finds it very difficult to just sit still, but you're doing that right now. You're talking to me.

and you're sitting quite still. So you have that ability to do it. It's when your mind is racing off and thinking I've got to go and do this, I've got to go here, I shouldn't be sitting. And it's beating yourself up in a way of thinking there's too much to do, I shouldn't be sitting. But why we don't have to sit, we can stand. We can stand and just be at peace. And this is what I teach in the Qigong.

is how to stand correctly in that you're actually when you stand properly and your body is in alignment and you feel that you will feel that heat building in your body and all of this is your you become aware of things and you connect to that you connect to the feelings that you're experiencing whether you're sitting or standing and then we go into the breath.

and then we do this breathing exercise that's just playing with the breath, allowing it to do different things because that's the beauty of breathing is while we have to breathe and our body will not let us become unconscious, if you hold your breath long enough, your body will tell you, you've got to take a breath. But when we start to play with the breath and we can consciously connect with the breath, that in itself.

helps you to calm everything down because you're going into that, changing the wavelengths that are going on in your brain. So you'll go from that kind of busyness, the alpha waves, down right down to the delta waves where you're almost asleep but not quite. You're still conscious, but you're still conscious of what's going on internally. And by playing with the breath, we can change how we feel in different ways. We can speed up the heart or we could slow it down.

Isn't that amazing? We can do that just by standing. And that's one of the things that, you know, that's connecting, that is really connecting to the body and to your own, your own feelings internally. And then we play with that for a bit. And then you'll start to feel this heat building inside your body that is actually all this energy moving while you're being at peace and being still.

Hamish (25:04)
Mm -hmm.

Barbara Ellis (25:27)
We should try it. We will try it one day.

Hamish (25:31)
We all have to. So is that things like I've heard of box breathing and 278 breathing? Is it is it things like those? Can you explain what those are?

Barbara Ellis (25:39)
Yeah, box breathing is like you imagine a box. You've got four sides and each side is of equal size. And so you breathe in, say for a count of four, breathing in. Holding it for a count of four. And then breathing out for a count of four. Holding it for another count of four. So it's equal length of breathing in.

holding, breathing out, holding. If you wish to change it to slightly longer, this is a good way of actually stimulating the vagus nerve. So you will breathe in, say, for the count of four and hold it for the count of eight. And then breathe out for the count of four and hold it for the count of eight. So that's another one.

Now to really get things stimulated I would like you to just take a deep breath in.

and just hold it and now what I want you to do is breathe all the way out.

Keep breathing out until you can't breathe anymore, anymore, anymore. Now hold it. Now hold it. You're not going to breathe in yet. Just hold it as long as you possibly can. Hold it.

until eventually your body is saying, I need to breathe. And when your body says, I need to breathe, take a breath in. There you go. Now, if you do that three times, yeah, you'll start to feel a little bit, ooh, spacey. But what you're doing is you're stimulating the vagus nerve and that's the biggest nerve in the body. It's the one that, well, basically it keeps all your internal organs working properly. And it also helps with, it keeps your breathing.

going. So it's your heartbeat, all the somatic influences inside you and also your digestive system, all the organs, the vagus nerve is so important. And we often when we're breathing, we tend to breathe quite shallow when we're just normally breathing. When you actually play with the breath and doing that one where you hold it right at the end,

Your body is craving oxygen because your breath breathed everything out. Your body is craving oxygen. You're telling yourself I'm going to have to take a breath and you kick it in and that stimulates your ve- gus nerve.

Hamish (28:14)
myself beginning to get dizzy just doing that once so suggest people sit down when they do that.

Barbara Ellis (28:17)
Mm -hmm.

Yes, I wouldn't have them standing up doing that one. It's, yes, it's very important to sit down. And if you feel dizzy, don't do it again. But keep practicing it. It's a great way if you're, it stimulates, a great way to start your day actually, stimulating the vagus nerve first thing in the morning. So you can do it lying down, just doing it that way. But be careful when you get up, you may still feel a little bit dizzy.

And that's just because you have de -prived your body of oxygen and as suddenly you're taking that big breath in. That's a really good one to just practice every so often and really get your vagus nerve stimulated. So as you see, there's lots of different ways of breathing and there are also ones where you can breathe in. And as you're breathing out, you do it.

Pulsing.

again, taking it to the end of the breath, just holding for a few seconds and breathing in again.

and pulsing. Doing each one, each time you do anything, you're doing it three times just to let your body get used to that. Again, it can feel a little bit, you know, you're going to get a little bit lightheaded. That's okay. As long as you're sitting down or lying down when you're doing it, but it's a playing with it again. But this is my most favorite.

If you take a breath in.

and then take another breath in. What you're doing is you're taking this whole breath down into your diaphragm, taking that first breath in, and then you just take, feel as if you're lifting, you're not going to lift the shoulders, but you feel like you can just take that little bit extra breath in. So let's try this again, we're going to breathe in.

And now I'm just going to take another wee breath in.

And now breathe all the way out.

and breathe out again.

It's amazing how much you can do even more, even though you think, I've filled my lungs, but you can actually fill them a little bit more. And then you can empty them and you can empty them a little bit more. And I love doing that way.

There's lots of nice... Okay.

Hamish (30:25)
Thank you for those. I think that's really useful. They are great little exercises. Yeah. So there's breathing. What other things can people do just to sort of help keep them grounded or keep them, you know, when, as you said, you're sorry, this is again, not what I want to do.

Those were great exercises. I'm definitely going to try those. So what else do you find important when it comes to understanding your self care and looking after yourself?

Barbara Ellis (30:56)
Wow, that's a big one Hamish. There's lots of, because I'm a holistic therapist, I look at all kinds of things to help people with their health, whether it's the way they want to lose some weight, can help them with that. But it's not about putting somebody on a diet. It's about recognising what it is they want to be able to achieve by losing weight. So it's not about saying, I just want to lose some weight.

It's about what's the real reason about what's your motivation, if you like, what to do to lose weight. I could give somebody a diet, but they wouldn't follow it. It's about really getting into the understanding of what is stopping them from taking better care of their health and what is their motivation for, say, losing weight. For sleep.

is another huge one, which is an indication of stress. If people are not sleeping well, there's an indication of stress going on there. And that we often, because we're living such busy lives and we're on the go all the time, our brains never really get to be at peace. And this doing this breathing work and all the other things that I can show people what to do can help with sleep. And Qigong is so

Well, it's a very, what I would say is my go -to for everything. When I'm a little bit out of sync with myself, if I just do some qigong, it brings me back to this. This is the whole beauty of qigong, that's why I talk so much about it, is because it connects you to your body. And whatever somebody's, you know, perhaps they're not, they want to give up smoking.

Well, I have other techniques. I use the havening technique and hypnotherapy, which helps people to stop smoking. So there's lots of little tools I have in my toolbox. And when we were talking about the breathing earlier, I often do some cheek havening with the breath work. And that is another way of helping people to get back into that calm state by just stroking your arms just gently.

stroking your, and listening to calming music, if you like that. I'm not particularly one for doing that myself. I just sort of take myself into a nice place, imagine the nice situation and just gently stroking my arms, allowing my body to come back down into that calm state. And that's, do you know what, this is a great technique if you're feeling stressed, is just stroking your arms and just allowing yourself to.

be at peace and calm and just imagine yourself being somewhere lovely like the beach or the forest and just feeling yourself nurturing yourself and this creates delta waves again I talked about them earlier the delta waves that calm down the body bring your brain waves down so that you feel like you're much more at peace and what else do I have back pain is a big

aspect of what I talk about and on my website you'll see there's a whole story around my back pain and how I got better and back pain is can be cruel caused by stress, mental health issues and it's about finding ways of reducing stress and mental health, building our mental health, building our resilience and havening is a great tool to do that, it's helping people to build their resilience.

Hamish (34:51)
I want to take it back to an awakening. So let's assume one of our listeners is struggling with some physical pain or they're realising that they have to change something because there's severe back pain or neck pain or there's been a physical trauma.

What would be a process of...

working out what to do. So they haven't met you, they're on their own journey and they're looking at steps or something. What would be a way to start to understand what they need to do?

Barbara Ellis (35:24)
Well, first of all, recognising that they want to make change, they would like things to be different. And what I love to, when I talk to people, is to get their background story and to find out where all of this has started from. And some people may not, like myself, I may not have realised that it was all to do with that original fall. And other people, you know, people may be the same, that they don't know.

particularly what started all of this. But there is a point where there is a root cause of why they're presenting. And what I help people to do is actually to find that root cause, is to delve into their past, to delve into how they've lived their life, their lifestyle.

what they're doing to take care of themselves now, what they've done in the past. And it's like a road map, if you like. We find, I ask the questions and get to the root cause of where all of this starts from. And sometimes when we don't recognize what has created all of this, it's going to be very difficult sometimes for people to think, well, I'm here now, I want you to fix it.

why can't I fix it? What's going on? But once you get down into the real aspect of what brought them here in the first place, they can actually start to see that there was a time before it all started. So there was a time where they had no back pain or they had no illness. And if we can get back to that feeling inside our body,

That would be what I would help them on their journey to do is find that peace within themselves. It's just there, it's just we need to find it and then we build the backup from that. And though you can say but I'm in constant pain, I can't get rid of the pain. Yes, we can, we can reduce it. There are ways to help reduce, you may not get rid of it completely. Pain is needed.

for us to be aware that something is going on in the body. But when we are living with constant pain and it's all we can think about, it can take over your life. When you're able to then reduce the feeling of that pain, be able to switch it down if you like, turn down the dial, then we can actually start to rebuild their life. And Qigong helps with that as well.

Once you're connecting into the body through the movements and you're seeing that you can make those movements, sometimes they may not be comfortable, but you can still do it. And then you can build on that. But it's always done very gently. There's no pushing to the point. You've got to be in pain. There's no pain, no gain. That doesn't compute in my vocabulary at all. And it's just...

It's a process and it can take a long time but I'm a guide. I feel like I'm a guide. I've guided my own body to health and wellness and I love to help and guide other people to their health and wellness.

Hamish (38:50)
So it is becoming self -aware, it is self -care, it is changing how you believe and I guess love yourself.

Barbara Ellis (38:59)
Absolutely, absolutely. The words we tell ourselves, the way we think about, you know, all the thoughts that we have in our heads, they're words. We've taken them, the words that we're told and we can change those words. If we have to live with constant negativity about ourselves and our bodies and how we feel, you know, like I'm fat or I wish I could change this or something like that.

If you tell yourself, I'm going to feel great today, even if you're saying to someone, I don't really feel great. But if you say it to yourself, I'm going to be great today. I'm going to achieve so much today. And you write something down and there's lots of techniques that you can use to help stimulate a more positive thinking. And when you start thinking more positively about how you feel about yourself.

Does it matter what you look like? We're all unique. We're all different. We're all shapes and sizes. I sometimes think, I wish I could lose some weight. Well, I did recently because I was ill. Now it's not a great way to lose weight, but I'm not worrying about it. I'm not saying I've got to go on a diet. I've got to do this and do that.

It would be nice to be a little bit slimmer, but I accept as we get a little bit older, us women tend to put a little bit extra weight on, I think it's our hormones. Now that's a whole other story, which I am not going to go into today. But it's like, I love my body. I think it's beautiful. I think that I have this uniqueness that is me and I love who I am. and I love the energy that I...

trying to show people and well I don't try, I do. I put this energy out that you just love yourself. Give yourself a hug. You deserve it. We all deserve it. And doing the Havening, giving yourself a hug is just so special. What's not to love? I know that there are some people who don't feel like this. It's very hard but I'm not making it light of this.

I know what depression is and I've been there. I know that feeling of feeling that the world is just, you're carrying it on your shoulders.

but with all the techniques that I have at my disposal, I can lift my energy, I can lift my thoughts. And when I catch myself saying something negative about my body or myself, I say, where are you going with this? What are you doing? And asking myself, well, do you want to do that or do you want to change it so that you feel a lot better? What are you going to do? So I talk to myself, I'm constantly...

re -energising. I love that. I love that feeling that I can re -energize. I can re -energize my thoughts and my body by just thinking it. Isn't that amazing? I'm doing it now, you can tell.

Hamish (42:14)
That is amazing and we are creative. We are very powerful. I mean you've implied there that if I'm going to think the world is grey, it is grey. It is grey, it is dark and the universe will say, yeah, it's grey, here you are, here is proof, here is proof. And I love that if I'm going to change my perspective, my way of thinking and viewing the world, I can make it rosy and shiny and I can make that my reality.

why not make our lives easier? I know people are often addicted to their own pain or their stories or their emotions, but it's not always helpful. But how am I going to get out of that state of being when I am feeling beaten up the whole time? How do I start to move from that space? Because I know I want to. I've heard the stories, I've heard...

do this, do this, all sorts of things, but how am I going to start to believe that I can do that? Because it's difficult.

Barbara Ellis (43:20)
It is difficult and I appreciate that I can say that they've done this.

It is about beliefs. We all have beliefs about... Again, it comes back down to what do you believe? Do you believe that the world is as bad as you think it is? Do we believe that we're never going to get better? You're never going to feel that. So if you believe that, it's about changing that thought because that's where your people can be stuck. They are stuck.

constantly stuck in that belief that the world is, everything is awful.

But when you can show them that there are changed ways to that there are there is a difference, there is there are different pathways. You can see it. Where. There's it's like a timeline almost like you've got one end, there's the negative and at the top other end is the positive. And we can move back and forward along this timeline and through this timeline, we can find.

words, thoughts that are different. Some will be more towards the positive and some will be more towards the negative. And this is a technique that I use when I'm working with people is that we take them back and forward, back and forward. And as we go back and forward along this timeline, we cannot change the words that we feel and think as we're moving. It's quite subtle.

They come to that point where you end up in the center and you feel quite calm. And then when that calmness comes over, you can start feeding in the more positive. What feels better for you? Is it this going up the way towards the positive or is it going down towards the negative? And when you start getting to that central point, when you're starting from the central point, you can move back into the.

the more positive because you have positive words. We all do. We all have positive feelings. Even in our darkest moments, there can be positive and it's finding that and getting them to think about and talk about what those words are. After all, a word is a thought. A thought is a word. The word is a thought. If we're thinking constantly one way or the other.

It's about moving. Again, it's movement. It's moving that energy one way. If it's down here, we want to move it up here. I know it's about allowing that movement and accepting that you can say those words, you can, and you can feel the words and it's a feeling. Where are you feeling it? What does it feel like? Is it a feeling that you would like to change? What could you change it to? Could you change it to a colour? Could you change it to a shape?

Can we change that? Can we make it bigger or smaller? And we can do this within our own thought processes because that's what thoughts are. They're words we tell ourselves.

Does that explain a little bit about...

Hamish (46:37)
It really, really does. So what you're saying is, or my understanding, breathe, get yourself into a state where you are not monkey mind, you're not going da -da -da -da -da -da -da -da -da -da -da -da -da -da -da

Barbara Ellis (46:57)
Yes.

Hamish (47:05)
I used to say, I'm stuck, I'm struggling, and I've taken those words out of my vocabulary. It was a challenge. You know, stuck is now challenge and things like that. But as I've changed those words, words are power, as you said, as I've changed those words, I'm feeling different. I'm cognitively different. And it's exciting. It's quite, it was quite powerful. It's very powerful.

Barbara Ellis (47:24)
Yes.

Hamish (47:35)
A friend of mine says, you know, words are spelling, they are spells. You know, it's quite a funny phrase, but they are powerful. And if I can change my phrasing from I'm stuck, I'm lonely, I'm hungry, I'm sad, to curiosity around that, then there's that chance to exactly as you said, to look at that awareness, look at those possibilities, those potentials, those choices. So it is choices, isn't it? It's always...

Barbara Ellis (47:37)
It is.

Hamish (48:05)
I have a choice to be in pain, to be suffering, to be uncomfortable, to be miserable, or I can choose, and it takes some effort, to move in a different direction.

Barbara Ellis (48:19)
Definitely, definitely is that and it's choice, it is choice. I worked with someone not so long ago and this person was, had had quite a trauma, traumatic experience and her history was quite significant in that her whole life was.

It was quite traumatic in all aspects right through from childhood. And she could not see how she could change her thoughts to be positive, to be saying positive words, because everything in her life was very negative. But I said words like love and happiness just didn't compute. So I said, well, their words exist. Those words are there.

You may not feel them at the moment. I said, but those words are still part of a vocabulary that we can tell ourselves. So we had a lot of work to it. It was a lot of work to help her to understand that she could use those words so that when she started saying something negative, we would stop and think, OK, there's an opposite to that. What is the opposite of that? So what word would you say that's opposite to?

anger. What would you say is opposite to hate? What is the opposite? So when you have an all words have the opposite so we can play with that and by going up and down this timeline she began to start to use those more positive words and she now accepts that she can love herself for all her faults that she feels she has. She can love herself. Now that to me is

of great success and she has come through a tremendous amount of change over the past couple of years working with her and it's made such huge strides in her life. She's now going from feeling unworthy to feeling worthy. She's got a job, she's able to paint, she's being more creative, she's doing all the things that she's been wanting to do for years but never had the courage to do it.

and she's writing a book. I mean, you know, the things that it's just taking someone on a journey that it is possible to make change and to change the way we think and feel about our thoughts.

Hamish (50:58)
That makes an awful lot of sense and I think for me I didn't realise I could change my beliefs. I had no concept that I could do that. I didn't give myself permission. So do you find that people don't realise that they can change their beliefs or they don't give themselves permission or they want to But they don't think they have that permission or even are allowed to change

Barbara Ellis (51:21)
It's almost like we're conditioned to follow a pattern of how we live our lives. And our beliefs confirm how we live our life. And yes, you're right. There are some people who will not. They're stuck. You use that word, they're stuck.

they can't see that there's something else. When they work with other people, and I think this is, there's so much out there now that we can tap into to understanding that we don't have to conform to everything that we've been told we have to do, that we can make change and to have that belief that keep us where we are. They're there, whatever it is, whether it's...

You believe that you're not worthy or you're not able to do this, you've not got the training, you've not got this, you're constantly looking for something to actually make it so that you think, I am able to do this, I am worthy. But unless you actually change the thoughts on that, that belief about that you're not worthy, you have to tell yourself that you are. You have to...

practice it. Practice being unworthy, now practice being worthy. We've done years of practicing all the negative and yes you're right, I agree that there are people who feel that they can't change beliefs but you had to form that belief in the first place. That came from somewhere. So when you have that,

We can undo that, we can pick it to changing what that belief is if it's not serving you. And our subconscious always wants to go back to what we think is safe. That's part of the brain that it's like the monkey brain you talked about where it wants to keep you safe. You can't overstep. You can't. It's too risky. But actually, it's.

When you realise that you can make those changes and not be at risk to yourself or to your life,

Allow your subconscious to play with it and realise that you're still safe.

Hamish (53:50)
It's just a belief it's just what that current reality is and why can't we change it I had to change an awful lot of my beliefs and It wasn't easy but Looking back at it. They were they were mine. They were my beliefs and they were mine and why should I let them go?

And yet when I questioned them, I got curious about them, I played with them. I love the fact that you like playing with all sorts of things. So when I played with those beliefs, is that true? Is that way that I got brought up true or is it true for those who taught me that? I mean, that's going down the lines of ancestral beliefs and ancestral stories, which are the same as societal beliefs and stories. They are just what we've

been provided with. It doesn't mean they are right. But I had to look at those and question what my parents taught me and my grandparents taught me and society and said, yep, I agree with that. I'm going to be courageous. No, I'm not going to be that. But I had to ask for permission. I didn't realise that I was able to. And once I realised that, things just changed.

you know, it became effortless, not easy, but effortless, I had to put the thinking

OK, so it's all about being curious then, isn't it? That's really important.

Barbara Ellis (55:21)
It is, and the more curious you are, I think some people are just so locked in where they are in their lives that they're not curious as to what is possible. And we start playing with words and thoughts, what our thoughts are and being curious about what they feel like inside our bodies. Because all thoughts create a feeling.

and those feelings, we need a word to describe them. But when we start playing with all of that and be curious about it, what does that make me feel like? I've got butterflies in my tummy or I'm going like my heart racing or do I feel this excitement? Do I feel joy? What words come into my thoughts? And then we play with all the words and then the feelings with the words and back and forward and back and forward. And I love that. It's almost like a game where we can...

Try different things and be curious about it. It's, yeah.

Hamish (56:24)
think that's brilliant. I love that whole idea. Now here's a question for you. Which comes first? The emotions or the thought or the feelings?

Barbara Ellis (56:35)
Wow, yeah, I see it as a circle.

It's a good question because when we were born, we had no thoughts. We only had feelings and emotions. And we had no words to place what these were. We just had the reactions as babies. And then those feelings were all developing and we were making connections within the nervous system through those feelings.

and emotions. And it's not until we start to have words, we say words, and there's a connection with the word, the sound to a meaning. So I, my belief is the emotions come first, then the words and thoughts are very interlinked because when you don't have what, what is a thought? It's

we have to have words to express what that thought is, but we feel it. So I think the feelings are always that we have this gut feeling, we can have a gut feeling, but we can't really explain what it is. So that feeling is there and we may not be able to explain it until we sort of start putting the words to it. So I think the feeling and that's often we don't tend to connect with the feeling.

because we're so in our heads with the thoughts and the words that we use. But when we connect to the feeling and use that first, it can change your thoughts.

It's an interesting one, isn't it? I think there's a lot of debate about which comes first, but my feeling is feeling. It's feeling first. I've got that feeling, then I connect to the thought on it, which gives me the word that I can place to that feeling.

Hamish (58:30)
that makes so much sense from that perspective. Yeah, as a baby, there was pain, there was smile seeing mum, there was that that came first and then the language to explain it. I like that. Because we're not our thoughts are our feelings are we they're just messages.

Barbara Ellis (58:50)
what would we do if we didn't have words? How would we express our feelings and thoughts to other people? We would have to use body language, we would have to use ways of that communication, which was probably part of our ancestral.

development and we still do it. We use facial expressions, we use our hands, we use our body, carrying our body in certain ways can show us how we're feeling in the world.

that we can't do anything with those feelings if we're not connected to each other and being able to share it. And I think this kind of takes us right back to the beginning in a way is that this connection humanity is being disconnected by the way we're living our lives. And that in turn is disconnecting us from our own bodies. Whereas with humanity,

craves to be with other people and to have that connection. And that's what helps to keep us sane, you know, stimulated, curious about this, everything that's going on and how it feels for each of us and sharing all of this. I think is where bringing.

If we can bring humanity back together, we can show and we can support each other in so many ways with health and wellness as well as all the other things that are going on, that it's this connection and in Chinese medicine is so fundamental, the connection to everything around us, within us and around us and the people that we hold in our communities.

and coming together with those communities and the support and love that we can give to one another helps to keep us to live longer. But with disconnection, when we disconnect, we are more at risk of being isolated even within ourselves than... Do you see where I'm going with this? I get quite passionate about how humanity is feeling as if we're being pulled apart.

And it's the same with our health. We're being pulled away from what will keep us healthy and well. And that's community. It's about support, finding the people that are important to you, that that supports you, that are around you. And.

Yeah, that's a big subject, Hamish is thoughts, feelings and words.

Hamish (1:01:34)
I think you have perfectly summed it up there. Johann Hari says the opposite of addiction is connection. And I think what you've said there about connection with ourselves, with each other is such, so important and so profound. And we are disconnected. We are so busy, as you said, running around doing this, doing that, expectations, demands, that we are losing that connection. And that's a tragedy.

It really is a tragedy.

Barbara Ellis (1:02:06)
is very, very much. And if you look at history, back through the generations, it was the community and the support of each, each community with each other and taking care of one another. Even going back and way, way further back, if you look at the bonobo apes, they keep, you know, the closest to us as humans, they stay in groups, they, they

nurture and care for each other in groups. And that's where we evolved from through, I don't know what your beliefs are, here we go with beliefs. But it's looking at where we are as humans, it's almost like we've reaching this point where in our societies, there's this division that is creating ill health.

and stress all of the things around what's going on in our world. And it's by coming together in communities and finding our community where we feel nurtured and cared for. That's what's going to help us survive. And the more that we live disconnected from each other, the more our health will suffer. And it's been proven in

research that's been done that we are at risk, a higher risk of all the diseases related to stress and isolation and that is cancers, different new cancers that are coming forward through now and the mental health and there's a statistic to show that used to be the back pain was the number one cause of people coming off work, being off work.

But now it's stress and back pain and the two are interlinked hugely because it's the nervous system and your mental health. And this when we come together as communities and care for one another and support one another, our mental health is so much better because we're working together, we're supporting each other. And that to me is where this wonderful connection and you know, it's

I think that smaller communities will in time be more healthy than people living in the cities because unless they form communities themselves, but the further we disconnect as a society, the more at risk we are of developing diseases like obesity, cancer, what's the other one I'm thinking of, depression, depression as well on the increase. It doesn't have to be like that.

And we as humans can actually make that change.

Hamish (1:05:02)
fabulous. I think we have, you've brought this such a beautiful conclusion there. So thank you ever so much Barbara.

Barbara Ellis (1:05:10)
You're welcome and thank you for having me. I really enjoyed talking with you, Hamish, and any time you want me to come again, I've got lots I can share.

Hamish (1:05:23)
We will definitely get you back on here as well. Yeah, but before you go two things. Where can people find out more about you?

Barbara Ellis (1:05:31)
Okay, my website is meetbarbarellis .com and my whole story around why I'm doing what I'm doing is on there. And I am about to set up a membership which is going to bring people together and for me to help talk about and to show you different techniques and things that you can do to keep your health well. And that's going to be Vitality Reclaimed.

based on my membership that's in the process of being at. But you can also ring me. I am happy to talk and just to for people to call me and have a conversation. And that's the beginning of your journey with me to find out whether I am suited for you or you wish, you know, if you wish to proceed with me. And my number is 07552 450102.

I don't know if you wanted that. Put that in there. And also an email is vitalityreclaimed@gmail .com.

Hamish (1:06:41)
Brilliant, thank you. Well, I'll make sure that is in the show notes and certainly your community, because that sounds really, really interesting. And lastly, what is your superpower that you got from your awakening?

Barbara Ellis (1:06:54)
My superpower is my belief that I can heal my own body.

without pills, drugs, whatever. It's just I have the ability to heal my own body.

Hamish (1:06:59)
Brandt?

Fabulous. I love that. I think that is so empowering, isn't it? Because we all have that capacity to do that.

Barbara Ellis (1:07:14)
Yeah, definitely.

Hamish (1:07:16)
Brilliant Barbara, well thank you ever so much for your time today for sharing us your wisdom and those little tips that will definitely help people and me to breathe better and things like that. So thank you ever so much.

Barbara Ellis (1:07:27)
Thank you, Hamish. Thanks very much.

Hamish Niven (1:07:31)
Thank you for listening to this episode of The Crucible, Conversations for the Curious. If these powerful stories of transformation resonated with you, be sure to like, subscribe and share this show with anyone who you think could do with a dose of inspiration for their own journey. I would really appreciate it if you could make any comments on your favourite podcast platform as well, that helps me reach more people. All the important links and information are in the show notes below. Thank you very much for listening and catch up with you soon.